The causes for wisdom

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
User avatar
Mr Man
Posts: 2235
Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2011 8:42 am

Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby Mr Man » Mon Feb 11, 2013 5:07 pm

Hi robertk
robertk wrote:
I think motivation is conditioned by various factors, such as right view and wrong view?

Yes and the factors are not always easy to see.
robertk wrote:You have mentioned how the views put forward on this thread are ""rather an odd collective belief to hold" and how there "strong groupthink among sujin follwers here" so presumably you believe the points I made are conditioned primarily by wrong view, or if you prefer conventional terms, illogical or ridiculous (or simply odd).

The "rather an odd collective belief to hold" was "We believe that there have been many great meditators that used jhana as a basis for insight." it sounded almost like doctrine. That there is "strong groupthink among sujin followers here" would seem fair but I don't think that the points you have made are conditioned primarily by wrong view. I don't think that way actually. The phrase from Ajahn Chah has come to mind a few times though "true but not right, right but not true" .
robertk wrote: For me I was happily putting them forward but if you can show that they are in opposition to the Theravada Tipitika and ancient Commentaries that would be great, please do.

I can't do that, I wouldn't have an interest in doing that and if I could what difference would it make?
robertk wrote:For your point about views being "no more personal or impersonal than anything else", I believe it is Theravada axiom that all things are anatta, impersonal, not self...

Yes but is that your perspective?

User avatar
robertk
Posts: 1944
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 2:08 am

Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby robertk » Mon Feb 11, 2013 5:26 pm

robertk wrote:

I think motivation is conditioned by various factors, such as right view and wrong view?


Yes and the factors are not always easy to see

Isn't that the truth!

]robertk wrote:
For your point about views being "no more personal or impersonal than anything else", I believe it is Theravada axiom that all things are anatta, impersonal, not self...


Yes but is that your perspective?
[/quote]
Yes absolutely, but as I think both of us have been indicating it is a view, right or wrong. If there is nothing deeper than intellectual acceptance my perspective could change .

User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 22769
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Feb 11, 2013 5:43 pm

robertk wrote:For me I was happily putting them forward but if you can show that they are in opposition to the Theravada Tipitika
Showing that your wholesale dismissal of meditation is in opposition to the suttas has been done here, and as for the ancient Commentaries, your use and the example of NVG's use of the Visuddhimagga do not point to a skillful usage.

Maybe we like to think that we have freewill and that we can choose to do good. Or why not choose to be always fearless, never nervous. Even we are in a plane crash why not just choose to be perfectly unworried?

It seems to me in fact that fearlessness gradually comes about from seeing into anatta (at whatever level) and uncontrollabilty as one is wearing away the idea of a self who suffers, "who" needs protection; it erases, so it seems, the idea of a body that is under anyones control.
Sure, but the nice thing is that following the Buddha's teachings, by the choice of putting into practice what the Buddha stated that we should put into practice -- what we can put into practice -- we can, by choices of meditation, of the practice of sila and such, cultivate the conditions that allow us to see and to act with wisdom. As said above, there is a reason why I value doing meditation when I am sick or in pain.
    >> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<<
    -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

dhamma follower
Posts: 346
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2009 5:48 am

Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby dhamma follower » Tue Feb 12, 2013 7:23 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings DF,

An observation which may help in understanding why your thoughts are being met with such resistance...

There appears to be a concern that by putting everything down to "conditions", which in turn have their own conditions, which have their own conditions etc... that this mode of engagement is discounting or ignoring the role of intention (cetana).

By not accounting for cetana (or perhaps insisting that cetana itself arises on account of conditions), you're discounting the notion of free will and projecting a form of fatalism. Whereas fatalism is usually depicted in terms of projecting the future from the present... what this Abhidhamma-speak and insistence on impersonal conditions is doing, is to project a form of fatalism from the past to the present.

Perhaps this is why the Buddha taught things like kamma, and not things like Abhidhamma?



Metta,
Retro. :)


Dear Retro,

I don't think the Buddha taught free will. He taught that will is a conditioned dhamma.

Fatalism means no way out. But the Buddha taught the 8 Noble fold Path which leads out of samsara. However, there's no traveler of the Path, like in the Dhammapada:

"Mere suffering exists, no sufferer is found;

The deeds are, but no doer of the deeds is there;

Nirvana is, but not the person who enters it;

The path is, but no traveler thereon is seen."

Brgds,
D.F

dhamma follower
Posts: 346
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2009 5:48 am

Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby dhamma follower » Tue Feb 12, 2013 7:30 am

tiltbillings wrote:
In my understanding, it is rather understanding which arises and approach a reality with sati, which is called sati- sampajana. Without the element of right understanding of reality, it is not sati of satipatthana, and we can not actively make it to arise and maintain it. Understanding of its conditions, however, is a factor that can condition it to arise.
Intellectual understanding has an important role to play, but if one does not actually do what is necessary to actually see “reality,” as the Buddha taught, all the intellectual “right understanding” is of limited value. Hoping for something to arise because we have amassed an intellectual understanding might work to some degree, but it is not what the Buddha taught. He taught much more based upon our ability to choose, to act, to deliberately cultivate those factors that give rise to insight/vipassana.


Intellectual understanding, or rather yoniso manasikara conditions direct understanding. It 's what the Buddha taught in a sutta (I have to find it again but I don't have it now): yoniso manasikara is the food for satipatthana. Having intellectual is not as easy as one thinks, however. We are now not agreeing on our understanding of the texts, or on this forum, people disagree on so many things..., that's an example.

Brgds,
D.F

dhamma follower
Posts: 346
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2009 5:48 am

Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby dhamma follower » Tue Feb 12, 2013 7:38 am

Mr Man wrote:
dhamma follower wrote:So when you said "I would not be able to assert to myself that her views are right if there had not been enough consideration from my own part." So that consideration was "Yoniso manasikara" and that "Yoniso manasikara" happened because the right conditions were there? It was not an activity? Amd the "consideration" was not touched or tainted?


Naturally it is not an activity. Manasikara is a cetasika which arises with all citta, it is usually translated as attention, consideration...It is yoniso manasikara when it accompanies kusala citta, and in the case of vipassana bhavana, it is accompanied by panna. Because it is yoniso, it is free from taints, at the moment it arises. If i try deliberately, however, to "considerate", it might be ayoniso manasikara, for sure.

Brgds,
D.F

User avatar
polarbear101
Posts: 898
Joined: Mon Apr 16, 2012 7:39 am
Location: California

Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby polarbear101 » Tue Feb 12, 2013 7:39 am

dhamma follower wrote:



I don't think the Buddha taught free will. He taught that will is a conditioned dhamma.

Fatalism means no way out. But the Buddha taught the 8 Noble fold Path which leads out of samsara. However, there's no traveler of the Path, like in the Dhammapada:


Fatalism: a doctrine that events are fixed in advance so that human beings are powerless to change them; also : a belief in or attitude determined by this doctrine.

In other words, if one accepts that the choices we are going to make are already determined by prior causes and conditions and that the entire universe is already determined by prior causes and conditions to unfold in a specific way then whoever is going to become an arahant is going to become one though no will of their own. It is simply the universe rolling on.

Personally, I think the buddha would have avoided these sorts of discussions though and just told us to cultivate the path, cultivate the wholesome, cultivate the seven factors of awakening, the first one being sati. Sati is something that is to be cultivated through practice, it cannot arise without the desire and intention to do so. Scientific study of meditation has proven that intentional formal practice does actually improve the mind so regardless of what anyone says, intentional formal meditation helps and I hope that every person interested in following the Dhamma will realize that.

:namaste:
"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."

dhamma follower
Posts: 346
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2009 5:48 am

Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby dhamma follower » Tue Feb 12, 2013 7:44 am

kirk5a wrote:

Where, in the following, do you see the requirement, the precondition, for "right understanding of reality"? Where do you see the suggestion "we can not actively make it arise"?
"And how does a monk remain focused on the body in & of itself?

[1] "There is the case where a monk — having gone to the wilderness, to the shade of a tree, or to an empty building — sits down folding his legs crosswise, holding his body erect and setting mindfulness to the fore [lit: the front of the chest]. Always mindful, he breathes in; mindful he breathes out.

"Breathing in long, he discerns, 'I am breathing in long'; or breathing out long, he discerns, 'I am breathing out long.' Or breathing in short, he discerns, 'I am breathing in short'; or breathing out short, he discerns, 'I am breathing out short.'
[/quote]

Hi Kirk,

We should not expect the Buddha explain every details in the same sutta. The conditions for right understanding are mentioned in other suttas as quoted by RobertK here and I might provide some later.

Btw, the satipatthana sutta includes both description of samatha bhavana and vipassana. Each kind of development has its own conditions.

Brgds,
D.F

dhamma follower
Posts: 346
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2009 5:48 am

Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby dhamma follower » Tue Feb 12, 2013 7:50 am

Alex123 wrote:Hello DF,

dhamma follower wrote:i don't have a choice over my views. They are conditioned, as any other sankhara dhamma. It was different 10 years ago. It was different 10 months and 10 days ago. Never really the same. It changes as considering over dhammas occurs again and again, by conditions.


Can you at this moment, please do it, think "All things are anatta"? Of course you can do it right now. This is right view.
Or
Can you at this moment, please do it, think "Atta really exists. I wonder what it is..."? Of course you can do it right now. This is wrong view.


Hi Alex,

Understanding is not repeating words. I can of course say now "All things are anatta" as you resquested without really understanding what that means. Right view is right understanding. I could now say this to a friend nearby, he might or might not understand it at all, depending on his accumulations.

brgds,
D.F

User avatar
SamKR
Posts: 887
Joined: Sun Jul 19, 2009 4:33 pm

Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby SamKR » Tue Feb 12, 2013 7:52 am

"'No intentional effort can cause wisdom to arise': That seems to be one extreme. "'Only intentional effort can cause wisdom': That seems to be a second extreme. Avoiding these two extremes, perhaps the Tathagata taught the Dhamma via the middle?
Last edited by SamKR on Tue Feb 12, 2013 8:02 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Mr Man
Posts: 2235
Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2011 8:42 am

Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby Mr Man » Tue Feb 12, 2013 7:55 am

Hi dhamma follower
So you are saying that there has been yoniso manasikara (consideration that is free from taints) when you have come into contact with Khun Sujin's views? There is no doubt? How are you sure?

When you meet Khun Sujin do you listen?

User avatar
Spiny Norman
Posts: 4570
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:32 am
Location: Spam, wonderful spam

Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby Spiny Norman » Tue Feb 12, 2013 10:30 am

SamKR wrote:"'No intentional effort can cause wisdom to arise': That seems to be one extreme. "'Only intentional effort can cause wisdom': That seems to be a second extreme. Avoiding these two extremes, perhaps the Tathagata taught the Dhamma via the middle?


Right Effort is a factor of the 8-fold path, so it's looks as if intentional effort is an important aspect of practice - at least in creating the right conditions for panna to arise.
"My religion is very simple - my religion is ice-cream."
Dairy Lama

dhamma follower
Posts: 346
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2009 5:48 am

Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby dhamma follower » Tue Feb 12, 2013 11:46 am

Mr Man wrote:Hi dhamma follower
So you are saying that there has been yoniso manasikara (consideration that is free from taints) when you have come into contact with Khun Sujin's views? There is no doubt? How are you sure?

When you meet Khun Sujin do you listen?


You are suggesting that what I have understood might be wrong. Well, of course it might be. But until now, I don't see that this understanding goes against the Buddha's teaching. Doubt will only be completely removed by sotapana magga citta, which I don't claim to have. The dhammas are so intricate and we know so little, so there is doubt about this and that characteristics of dhammas, it comes along with non-understanding, which arise more, much more often than moments of understanding.

Yes, I listen to AS when I meet her, ask question too and discuss with her and others. Why?

dhamma follower
Posts: 346
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2009 5:48 am

Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby dhamma follower » Tue Feb 12, 2013 12:07 pm

SamKR wrote:"'No intentional effort can cause wisdom to arise': That seems to be one extreme. "'Only intentional effort can cause wisdom': That seems to be a second extreme. Avoiding these two extremes, perhaps the Tathagata taught the Dhamma via the middle?


Dear Sam,

Intention arises with all cittas, so intentional and non-intentional effort don't make sense at all. Effort arises with 73 (if I'm not mistaken) out of 89, so with most cittas. It can be accompanied by either akusala or kusala cetasika. When it arises with akusala citta, it is wrong effort. The right effort of the 8NP arises with kusala citta with understanding. So it is the understanding which is the leading factor. With right understanding, there's right effort. The middle Path is also the 8NP. There's no one who practices, it is panna cetasika, together with other wholesome citta which cultivate the Path.

You might have heard about the word "samvega", which means sense of urgency. When panna understands, it gives rise to samvega, which condition ever more moments of sati-sampajana leading to the culmination of the Path. It is an empty process.

Brgds,
D.F

User avatar
Mr Man
Posts: 2235
Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2011 8:42 am

Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby Mr Man » Tue Feb 12, 2013 12:15 pm

dhamma follower wrote:You are suggesting that what I have understood might be wrong.
I would think it would be wise to be open that possibility. Being right can be a bit of a burden.
dhamma follower wrote:Yes, I listen to AS when I meet her, ask question too and discuss with her and others. Why?
That is called an activity. Unfortunately that activity may be touched with Silabbataparamasa :(

User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 22769
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Feb 12, 2013 2:29 pm

Mr Man wrote:
dhamma follower wrote:You are suggesting that what I have understood might be wrong.
I would think it would be wise to be open that possibility. Being right can be a bit of a burden.
dhamma follower wrote:Yes, I listen to AS when I meet her, ask question too and discuss with her and others. Why?
That is called an activity. Unfortunately that activity may be touched with Silabbataparamasa :(
Especially when there is the assumption that the "listening"will set up the conditions for the arising of wisdom; otherwise, why do it?

What is interesting is the denial of purposeful action by the Sujin followers, but it seems that one of the real problems with the Sujin method, as we see it portrayed here, is that the language used denies any actual moral responsibility.
    >> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<<
    -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 22769
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Feb 12, 2013 2:47 pm

dhamma follower wrote:Fatalism means no way out. But the Buddha taught the 8 Noble fold Path which leads out of samsara. However, there's no traveler of the Path, like in the Dhammapada:

"Mere suffering exists, no sufferer is found;

The deeds are, but no doer of the deeds is there;

Nirvana is, but not the person who enters it;

The path is, but no traveler thereon is seen."
This not from the Dhammapada, and I wonder if you actually know what is being said here.
    >> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<<
    -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 22769
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Feb 12, 2013 3:14 pm

dhamma follower wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
In my understanding, it is rather understanding which arises and approach a reality with sati, which is called sati- sampajana. Without the element of right understanding of reality, it is not sati of satipatthana, and we can not actively make it to arise and maintain it. Understanding of its conditions, however, is a factor that can condition it to arise.
Intellectual understanding has an important role to play, but if one does not actually do what is necessary to actually see “reality,” as the Buddha taught, all the intellectual “right understanding” is of limited value. Hoping for something to arise because we have amassed an intellectual understanding might work to some degree, but it is not what the Buddha taught. He taught much more based upon our ability to choose, to act, to deliberately cultivate those factors that give rise to insight/vipassana.


Intellectual understanding, or rather yoniso manasikara conditions direct understanding. It 's what the Buddha taught in a sutta (I have to find it again but I don't have it now): yoniso manasikara is the food for satipatthana. Having intellectual is not as easy as one thinks, however. We are now not agreeing on our understanding of the texts, or on this forum, people disagree on so many things..., that's an example.
Intellectual understanding equals yoniso-manasikāra?
    >> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<<
    -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

User avatar
beeblebrox
Posts: 939
Joined: Thu Dec 31, 2009 10:41 pm

Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby beeblebrox » Tue Feb 12, 2013 4:46 pm

dhamma follower wrote:
mikenz66 wrote:It would be more useful to share these experiences and views, rather than trying to prove that one view is better than another


I sincerely don't see how to share my views that I believe to be true (what I think I am doing) and not to show that it is closer to what is taught by the Buddha than another view which is different from mine?


Dear Dhamma Follower,

Sorry I've been away for a while.

I think it is exactly that, where we can see the dukkha... its arising, and the cessation. Many people don't seem to realize this. It's very easily noticed when there is mindfulness.

It is a skill. It's easier to develop when the setting is controlled (in a conventional sense)... such as in a sitting meditation, walking meditation, or listening to a Dharma talk.

How would that kind of environment become possible, where the conditions are arranged in a certain way where things end up more or less controlled? It's thanks to the Triple Jewel. The Buddha had the wisdom. He shared it via the Dhamma, and the Sangha carried it.

That is why it's possible for us to do these different kinds of practices, in a way which will enrich our own lives, and others.

Take advantage of that, please... our lives are very short. Don't waste your time on such frivolous things as whether there's a self that does things, or not. This encounter with the Dhamma is very rare.

I don't buy this logic of not doing the practice of mindfulness, if there was no wisdom.

If that was the case, then I don't think that we should even be talking right now, if we had no wisdom... especially not by trying to assert our own viewpoints of what the Dhamma is... because then this won't be the right speech. That would be disastrous.

I also don't think we should even listen to a Dhamma talk, if we had no proper attention... because that is the only way that the wisdom will even arise... Robert K. shared that in the very beginning of this thread. I think that to try to do it otherwise would be a complete waste of time... according to the logic in here.

So, please do your practice... whatever that might be.

:anjali:

User avatar
Alex123
Posts: 3469
Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2010 11:32 pm

Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby Alex123 » Tue Feb 12, 2013 6:11 pm

dhamma follower wrote:
Alex123 wrote:Hello DF,

dhamma follower wrote:i don't have a choice over my views. They are conditioned, as any other sankhara dhamma. It was different 10 years ago. It was different 10 months and 10 days ago. Never really the same. It changes as considering over dhammas occurs again and again, by conditions.


Can you at this moment, please do it, think "All things are anatta"? Of course you can do it right now. This is right view.
Or
Can you at this moment, please do it, think "Atta really exists. I wonder what it is..."? Of course you can do it right now. This is wrong view.


Hi Alex,

Understanding is not repeating words. I can of course say now "All things are anatta" as you resquested without really understanding what that means.


So if you can say "All things are anatta", then you are not powerless to influence at least some what occurs now. If you are not totally powerless than you can
read and study Dhamma more and more, and THAT will condition more wisdom.

Of course it is not all or nothing. While you can't wish and control things beyond your ability, you can set small causes by causes for future success.

It is like a young guy first coming to a gym and unable to lift very heavy. If he says "I can't lift 300 pounds so I am not going to weight train, I don't have conditions", then he will not get anywhere. But if he trains, eats, and rest right, eventually, little by little, he can improve a lot and perhaps even exceed lifting 300 pounds.

dhamma follower wrote:Right view is right understanding. I could now say this to a friend nearby, he might or might not understand it at all, depending on his accumulations.


And if one doesn't understand, right now, should one give up trying to understand and trying to learn?
"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."


Return to “General Theravāda discussion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], cjmacie and 7 guests

Google Saffron, Theravada Search Engine