The causes for wisdom

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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby Spiny Norman » Tue Feb 12, 2013 10:30 am

SamKR wrote:"'No intentional effort can cause wisdom to arise': That seems to be one extreme. "'Only intentional effort can cause wisdom': That seems to be a second extreme. Avoiding these two extremes, perhaps the Tathagata taught the Dhamma via the middle?


Right Effort is a factor of the 8-fold path, so it's looks as if intentional effort is an important aspect of practice - at least in creating the right conditions for panna to arise.
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby dhamma follower » Tue Feb 12, 2013 11:46 am

Mr Man wrote:Hi dhamma follower
So you are saying that there has been yoniso manasikara (consideration that is free from taints) when you have come into contact with Khun Sujin's views? There is no doubt? How are you sure?

When you meet Khun Sujin do you listen?


You are suggesting that what I have understood might be wrong. Well, of course it might be. But until now, I don't see that this understanding goes against the Buddha's teaching. Doubt will only be completely removed by sotapana magga citta, which I don't claim to have. The dhammas are so intricate and we know so little, so there is doubt about this and that characteristics of dhammas, it comes along with non-understanding, which arise more, much more often than moments of understanding.

Yes, I listen to AS when I meet her, ask question too and discuss with her and others. Why?
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby dhamma follower » Tue Feb 12, 2013 12:07 pm

SamKR wrote:"'No intentional effort can cause wisdom to arise': That seems to be one extreme. "'Only intentional effort can cause wisdom': That seems to be a second extreme. Avoiding these two extremes, perhaps the Tathagata taught the Dhamma via the middle?


Dear Sam,

Intention arises with all cittas, so intentional and non-intentional effort don't make sense at all. Effort arises with 73 (if I'm not mistaken) out of 89, so with most cittas. It can be accompanied by either akusala or kusala cetasika. When it arises with akusala citta, it is wrong effort. The right effort of the 8NP arises with kusala citta with understanding. So it is the understanding which is the leading factor. With right understanding, there's right effort. The middle Path is also the 8NP. There's no one who practices, it is panna cetasika, together with other wholesome citta which cultivate the Path.

You might have heard about the word "samvega", which means sense of urgency. When panna understands, it gives rise to samvega, which condition ever more moments of sati-sampajana leading to the culmination of the Path. It is an empty process.

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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby Mr Man » Tue Feb 12, 2013 12:15 pm

dhamma follower wrote:You are suggesting that what I have understood might be wrong.
I would think it would be wise to be open that possibility. Being right can be a bit of a burden.
dhamma follower wrote:Yes, I listen to AS when I meet her, ask question too and discuss with her and others. Why?
That is called an activity. Unfortunately that activity may be touched with Silabbataparamasa :(
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Feb 12, 2013 2:29 pm

Mr Man wrote:
dhamma follower wrote:You are suggesting that what I have understood might be wrong.
I would think it would be wise to be open that possibility. Being right can be a bit of a burden.
dhamma follower wrote:Yes, I listen to AS when I meet her, ask question too and discuss with her and others. Why?
That is called an activity. Unfortunately that activity may be touched with Silabbataparamasa :(
Especially when there is the assumption that the "listening"will set up the conditions for the arising of wisdom; otherwise, why do it?

What is interesting is the denial of purposeful action by the Sujin followers, but it seems that one of the real problems with the Sujin method, as we see it portrayed here, is that the language used denies any actual moral responsibility.
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Feb 12, 2013 2:47 pm

dhamma follower wrote:Fatalism means no way out. But the Buddha taught the 8 Noble fold Path which leads out of samsara. However, there's no traveler of the Path, like in the Dhammapada:

"Mere suffering exists, no sufferer is found;

The deeds are, but no doer of the deeds is there;

Nirvana is, but not the person who enters it;

The path is, but no traveler thereon is seen."
This not from the Dhammapada, and I wonder if you actually know what is being said here.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Feb 12, 2013 3:14 pm

dhamma follower wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
In my understanding, it is rather understanding which arises and approach a reality with sati, which is called sati- sampajana. Without the element of right understanding of reality, it is not sati of satipatthana, and we can not actively make it to arise and maintain it. Understanding of its conditions, however, is a factor that can condition it to arise.
Intellectual understanding has an important role to play, but if one does not actually do what is necessary to actually see “reality,” as the Buddha taught, all the intellectual “right understanding” is of limited value. Hoping for something to arise because we have amassed an intellectual understanding might work to some degree, but it is not what the Buddha taught. He taught much more based upon our ability to choose, to act, to deliberately cultivate those factors that give rise to insight/vipassana.


Intellectual understanding, or rather yoniso manasikara conditions direct understanding. It 's what the Buddha taught in a sutta (I have to find it again but I don't have it now): yoniso manasikara is the food for satipatthana. Having intellectual is not as easy as one thinks, however. We are now not agreeing on our understanding of the texts, or on this forum, people disagree on so many things..., that's an example.
Intellectual understanding equals yoniso-manasikāra?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby beeblebrox » Tue Feb 12, 2013 4:46 pm

dhamma follower wrote:
mikenz66 wrote:It would be more useful to share these experiences and views, rather than trying to prove that one view is better than another


I sincerely don't see how to share my views that I believe to be true (what I think I am doing) and not to show that it is closer to what is taught by the Buddha than another view which is different from mine?


Dear Dhamma Follower,

Sorry I've been away for a while.

I think it is exactly that, where we can see the dukkha... its arising, and the cessation. Many people don't seem to realize this. It's very easily noticed when there is mindfulness.

It is a skill. It's easier to develop when the setting is controlled (in a conventional sense)... such as in a sitting meditation, walking meditation, or listening to a Dharma talk.

How would that kind of environment become possible, where the conditions are arranged in a certain way where things end up more or less controlled? It's thanks to the Triple Jewel. The Buddha had the wisdom. He shared it via the Dhamma, and the Sangha carried it.

That is why it's possible for us to do these different kinds of practices, in a way which will enrich our own lives, and others.

Take advantage of that, please... our lives are very short. Don't waste your time on such frivolous things as whether there's a self that does things, or not. This encounter with the Dhamma is very rare.

I don't buy this logic of not doing the practice of mindfulness, if there was no wisdom.

If that was the case, then I don't think that we should even be talking right now, if we had no wisdom... especially not by trying to assert our own viewpoints of what the Dhamma is... because then this won't be the right speech. That would be disastrous.

I also don't think we should even listen to a Dhamma talk, if we had no proper attention... because that is the only way that the wisdom will even arise... Robert K. shared that in the very beginning of this thread. I think that to try to do it otherwise would be a complete waste of time... according to the logic in here.

So, please do your practice... whatever that might be.

:anjali:
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby Alex123 » Tue Feb 12, 2013 6:11 pm

dhamma follower wrote:
Alex123 wrote:Hello DF,

dhamma follower wrote:i don't have a choice over my views. They are conditioned, as any other sankhara dhamma. It was different 10 years ago. It was different 10 months and 10 days ago. Never really the same. It changes as considering over dhammas occurs again and again, by conditions.


Can you at this moment, please do it, think "All things are anatta"? Of course you can do it right now. This is right view.
Or
Can you at this moment, please do it, think "Atta really exists. I wonder what it is..."? Of course you can do it right now. This is wrong view.


Hi Alex,

Understanding is not repeating words. I can of course say now "All things are anatta" as you resquested without really understanding what that means.


So if you can say "All things are anatta", then you are not powerless to influence at least some what occurs now. If you are not totally powerless than you can
read and study Dhamma more and more, and THAT will condition more wisdom.

Of course it is not all or nothing. While you can't wish and control things beyond your ability, you can set small causes by causes for future success.

It is like a young guy first coming to a gym and unable to lift very heavy. If he says "I can't lift 300 pounds so I am not going to weight train, I don't have conditions", then he will not get anywhere. But if he trains, eats, and rest right, eventually, little by little, he can improve a lot and perhaps even exceed lifting 300 pounds.

dhamma follower wrote:Right view is right understanding. I could now say this to a friend nearby, he might or might not understand it at all, depending on his accumulations.


And if one doesn't understand, right now, should one give up trying to understand and trying to learn?
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby dhamma follower » Wed Feb 13, 2013 1:21 am

Mr Man wrote:
dhamma follower wrote:Yes, I listen to AS when I meet her, ask question too and discuss with her and others. Why?
That is called an activity. Unfortunately that activity may be touched with Silabbataparamasa :(


It would be Silabbataparamasa if there's clinging to the act of listening as being the way to liberation. I listen to AS because there are conditions for that to happen, just like now, I am writing on Dhammawheel, because there are conditions for that. But I don't have the idea that the development of understanding is restricted to moments where I listen to some teachers, or reading a book, or any kind of activity in particular. A moment of understanding might arise while I am cooking or washing too. Defilements are not a problem for the development of understanding, because they can be understood, anytime. However, association with an wise friends and listen to the saddhamma, are mentioned by the Buddha as preconditions for the arising of understanding. Without this factor, right understanding can not have the chance to arise. Listening to the Dhamma must be followed by proper consideration and right intellectual understanding in order for that to be called bhavana, though

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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby dhamma follower » Wed Feb 13, 2013 1:29 am

tiltbillings wrote:
Intellectual understanding, or rather yoniso manasikara conditions direct understanding. It 's what the Buddha taught in a sutta (I have to find it again but I don't have it now): yoniso manasikara is the food for satipatthana. Having intellectual is not as easy as one thinks, however. We are now not agreeing on our understanding of the texts, or on this forum, people disagree on so many things..., that's an example.
Intellectual understanding equals yoniso-manasikāra?[/quote]

Yoniso manasikara arises with all wholesome cittas. At the moment of right intellectual understanding of the dhamma which arises now (for example seeing, touching, hearing...), yoniso manasikara is there.

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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby dhamma follower » Wed Feb 13, 2013 1:38 am

Dear Alex,

read and study Dhamma more and more, and THAT will condition more wisdom


That's what I've been saying too. I would add though: study the dhammas which arise now.

And if one doesn't understand, right now, should one give up trying to understand and trying to learn


I never said one should give up. Otherwise, I would have stopped posting here. What has been said it's that understanding can not be made to arise at will.

Brgds,

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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Feb 13, 2013 3:45 am

dhamma follower wrote: What has been said it's that understanding can not be made to arise at will.
And as has been repeatedly said to you, no one here is claiming that wisdom can be made to arise at will. But what has been pointed out to you at length is that following the Buddha's clear teachings i sthat we can by our actions cultivate by meditation, by sila, by putting into practice the Eightfold Path the conditions that give rise to insight. It is by our actions, our choices that we do this.

    By oneself is evil done; by oneself is one defiled.
    By oneself is evil left undone; by oneself is one made pure.
    Purity and impurity depend on oneself; no one can purify another.

    -- Dhp 165
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Feb 13, 2013 3:49 am

dhamma follower wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:

Intellectual understanding, or rather yoniso manasikara conditions direct understanding. It 's what the Buddha taught in a sutta (I have to find it again but I don't have it now): yoniso manasikara is the food for satipatthana. Having intellectual is not as easy as one thinks, however. We are now not agreeing on our understanding of the texts, or on this forum, people disagree on so many things..., that's an example.
Intellectual understanding equals yoniso-manasikāra?


Yoniso manasikara arises with all wholesome cittas. At the moment of right intellectual understanding of the dhamma which arises now (for example seeing, touching, hearing...), yoniso manasikara is there.
Now you have shifted the argument from "intellectual understanding" to "right intellectual understanding." The nice thing, however, is that yoniso-manasikāra can be cultivated by the practices that the Buddha outlined.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Feb 13, 2013 3:53 am

dhamma follower wrote: I listen to AS because there are conditions for that to happen, just like now, I am writing on Dhammawheel, because there are conditions for that.
Yes; you deliberately chose to do so.

Listening to the Dhamma must be followed by proper consideration and right intellectual understanding in order for that to be called bhavana, though
In other words, you must choose to act -- proper consideration -- upon what you heard.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby kirk5a » Wed Feb 13, 2013 4:51 am

dhamma follower wrote:Hi Kirk,

We should not expect the Buddha explain every details in the same sutta. The conditions for right understanding are mentioned in other suttas as quoted by RobertK here and I might provide some later.

Btw, the satipatthana sutta includes both description of samatha bhavana and vipassana. Each kind of development has its own conditions.

Brgds,
D.F

You said:
Without the element of right understanding of reality, it is not sati of satipatthana, and we can not actively make it to arise and maintain it.

There isn't anything in the satipatthana sutta which supports your view of sati.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby Mr Man » Wed Feb 13, 2013 9:23 am

dhamma follower wrote:I listen to AS because there are conditions for that to happen,

Would you go into that a bit more please? What do you mean the conditions are right? Does that mean that you have saved enough money. You have some free time, You have bought an airplane ticket, flown so many miles, to listen, to converse, with no idea that you will gain anything, that the trip will be of any value? Or do you mean that you have great barami that allows this all to unfold?
dhamma follower wrote:But I don't have the idea that the development of understanding is restricted to moments where I listen to some teachers, or reading a book, or any kind of activity in particular. A moment of understanding might arise while I am cooking or washing too.

And when that moment of understanding arises do you let it pass away?
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby beeblebrox » Fri Feb 15, 2013 9:21 pm

After all that's been said in here, I think it's a good thing that the Buddha made dukkha the entry point for his practice... it's the first noble truth. Without it, the practice of the eightfold path would not even be possible. That includes the right view, its wisdom, and right mindfulness.

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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby dhamma follower » Sat Feb 16, 2013 6:39 am

tiltbillings wrote:
dhamma follower wrote: What has been said it's that understanding can not be made to arise at will.
And as has been repeatedly said to you, no one here is claiming that wisdom can be made to arise at will. But what has been pointed out to you at length is that following the Buddha's clear teachings i sthat we can by our actions cultivate by meditation, by sila, by putting into practice the Eightfold Path the conditions that give rise to insight. It is by our actions, our choices that we do this.



Well, Tilt, it has also pointed out at length that lobha, or dosa or moha can not practice, but it it the panna cetasika it self which is cultivated gradually by its own conditions, which are again: hearing the right dhamma and wise considering. When we talk about doing this and that, we talk about situations which include both wholesome and unwholesome moments. There has to be first a clear understanding that it is the citta which is accompanied by understanding which can condition another moment of understanding later on, because talking in terms of a situation (doing something in particular) doesn't help to understand the real relation between cause and effect. If there's that understanding, then there can be detachment to some particular activities, since any dhamma, good or bad can be object of understanding, like now.

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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby dhamma follower » Sat Feb 16, 2013 6:55 am

tiltbillings wrote:
dhamma follower wrote: I listen to AS because there are conditions for that to happen, just like now, I am writing on Dhammawheel, because there are conditions for that.
Yes; you deliberately chose to do so.



Does the word "deliberately" imply there is a self there making the choice? Isn't making choice- cetana also conditioned?

In other words, you must choose to act -- proper consideration -- upon what you heard.


What you say here amounts to say you can make wisdom- wise consideration- to arise at will.
In reality, no one can choose to have wise consideration. Sometime it happens, other times- more often, it doesn't.
It is self view which conceives the "self" who can control in what is only a conditioned dhamma.

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