The causes for wisdom

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
dhamma follower
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby dhamma follower » Wed Feb 13, 2013 1:21 am

Mr Man wrote:
dhamma follower wrote:Yes, I listen to AS when I meet her, ask question too and discuss with her and others. Why?
That is called an activity. Unfortunately that activity may be touched with Silabbataparamasa :(


It would be Silabbataparamasa if there's clinging to the act of listening as being the way to liberation. I listen to AS because there are conditions for that to happen, just like now, I am writing on Dhammawheel, because there are conditions for that. But I don't have the idea that the development of understanding is restricted to moments where I listen to some teachers, or reading a book, or any kind of activity in particular. A moment of understanding might arise while I am cooking or washing too. Defilements are not a problem for the development of understanding, because they can be understood, anytime. However, association with an wise friends and listen to the saddhamma, are mentioned by the Buddha as preconditions for the arising of understanding. Without this factor, right understanding can not have the chance to arise. Listening to the Dhamma must be followed by proper consideration and right intellectual understanding in order for that to be called bhavana, though

Brgds,
D.F

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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby dhamma follower » Wed Feb 13, 2013 1:29 am

tiltbillings wrote:
Intellectual understanding, or rather yoniso manasikara conditions direct understanding. It 's what the Buddha taught in a sutta (I have to find it again but I don't have it now): yoniso manasikara is the food for satipatthana. Having intellectual is not as easy as one thinks, however. We are now not agreeing on our understanding of the texts, or on this forum, people disagree on so many things..., that's an example.
Intellectual understanding equals yoniso-manasikāra?[/quote]

Yoniso manasikara arises with all wholesome cittas. At the moment of right intellectual understanding of the dhamma which arises now (for example seeing, touching, hearing...), yoniso manasikara is there.

Brgds,
D.F

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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby dhamma follower » Wed Feb 13, 2013 1:38 am

Dear Alex,

read and study Dhamma more and more, and THAT will condition more wisdom


That's what I've been saying too. I would add though: study the dhammas which arise now.

And if one doesn't understand, right now, should one give up trying to understand and trying to learn


I never said one should give up. Otherwise, I would have stopped posting here. What has been said it's that understanding can not be made to arise at will.

Brgds,

D.F

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tiltbillings
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Feb 13, 2013 3:45 am

dhamma follower wrote: What has been said it's that understanding can not be made to arise at will.
And as has been repeatedly said to you, no one here is claiming that wisdom can be made to arise at will. But what has been pointed out to you at length is that following the Buddha's clear teachings i sthat we can by our actions cultivate by meditation, by sila, by putting into practice the Eightfold Path the conditions that give rise to insight. It is by our actions, our choices that we do this.

    By oneself is evil done; by oneself is one defiled.
    By oneself is evil left undone; by oneself is one made pure.
    Purity and impurity depend on oneself; no one can purify another.

    -- Dhp 165
.


++++++++++++++++
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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tiltbillings
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Feb 13, 2013 3:49 am

dhamma follower wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:

Intellectual understanding, or rather yoniso manasikara conditions direct understanding. It 's what the Buddha taught in a sutta (I have to find it again but I don't have it now): yoniso manasikara is the food for satipatthana. Having intellectual is not as easy as one thinks, however. We are now not agreeing on our understanding of the texts, or on this forum, people disagree on so many things..., that's an example.
Intellectual understanding equals yoniso-manasikāra?


Yoniso manasikara arises with all wholesome cittas. At the moment of right intellectual understanding of the dhamma which arises now (for example seeing, touching, hearing...), yoniso manasikara is there.
Now you have shifted the argument from "intellectual understanding" to "right intellectual understanding." The nice thing, however, is that yoniso-manasikāra can be cultivated by the practices that the Buddha outlined.
.


++++++++++++++++
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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tiltbillings
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Feb 13, 2013 3:53 am

dhamma follower wrote: I listen to AS because there are conditions for that to happen, just like now, I am writing on Dhammawheel, because there are conditions for that.
Yes; you deliberately chose to do so.

Listening to the Dhamma must be followed by proper consideration and right intellectual understanding in order for that to be called bhavana, though
In other words, you must choose to act -- proper consideration -- upon what you heard.
.


++++++++++++++++
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby kirk5a » Wed Feb 13, 2013 4:51 am

dhamma follower wrote:Hi Kirk,

We should not expect the Buddha explain every details in the same sutta. The conditions for right understanding are mentioned in other suttas as quoted by RobertK here and I might provide some later.

Btw, the satipatthana sutta includes both description of samatha bhavana and vipassana. Each kind of development has its own conditions.

Brgds,
D.F

You said:
Without the element of right understanding of reality, it is not sati of satipatthana, and we can not actively make it to arise and maintain it.

There isn't anything in the satipatthana sutta which supports your view of sati.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

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Mr Man
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby Mr Man » Wed Feb 13, 2013 9:23 am

dhamma follower wrote:I listen to AS because there are conditions for that to happen,

Would you go into that a bit more please? What do you mean the conditions are right? Does that mean that you have saved enough money. You have some free time, You have bought an airplane ticket, flown so many miles, to listen, to converse, with no idea that you will gain anything, that the trip will be of any value? Or do you mean that you have great barami that allows this all to unfold?
dhamma follower wrote:But I don't have the idea that the development of understanding is restricted to moments where I listen to some teachers, or reading a book, or any kind of activity in particular. A moment of understanding might arise while I am cooking or washing too.

And when that moment of understanding arises do you let it pass away?

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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby beeblebrox » Fri Feb 15, 2013 9:21 pm

After all that's been said in here, I think it's a good thing that the Buddha made dukkha the entry point for his practice... it's the first noble truth. Without it, the practice of the eightfold path would not even be possible. That includes the right view, its wisdom, and right mindfulness.

:anjali:

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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby dhamma follower » Sat Feb 16, 2013 6:39 am

tiltbillings wrote:
dhamma follower wrote: What has been said it's that understanding can not be made to arise at will.
And as has been repeatedly said to you, no one here is claiming that wisdom can be made to arise at will. But what has been pointed out to you at length is that following the Buddha's clear teachings i sthat we can by our actions cultivate by meditation, by sila, by putting into practice the Eightfold Path the conditions that give rise to insight. It is by our actions, our choices that we do this.



Well, Tilt, it has also pointed out at length that lobha, or dosa or moha can not practice, but it it the panna cetasika it self which is cultivated gradually by its own conditions, which are again: hearing the right dhamma and wise considering. When we talk about doing this and that, we talk about situations which include both wholesome and unwholesome moments. There has to be first a clear understanding that it is the citta which is accompanied by understanding which can condition another moment of understanding later on, because talking in terms of a situation (doing something in particular) doesn't help to understand the real relation between cause and effect. If there's that understanding, then there can be detachment to some particular activities, since any dhamma, good or bad can be object of understanding, like now.

Brgds,
D.F

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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby dhamma follower » Sat Feb 16, 2013 6:55 am

tiltbillings wrote:
dhamma follower wrote: I listen to AS because there are conditions for that to happen, just like now, I am writing on Dhammawheel, because there are conditions for that.
Yes; you deliberately chose to do so.



Does the word "deliberately" imply there is a self there making the choice? Isn't making choice- cetana also conditioned?

In other words, you must choose to act -- proper consideration -- upon what you heard.


What you say here amounts to say you can make wisdom- wise consideration- to arise at will.
In reality, no one can choose to have wise consideration. Sometime it happens, other times- more often, it doesn't.
It is self view which conceives the "self" who can control in what is only a conditioned dhamma.

Brgds,
D.F

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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby dhamma follower » Sat Feb 16, 2013 7:10 am

Mr Man wrote:
dhamma follower wrote:I listen to AS because there are conditions for that to happen,

Would you go into that a bit more please? What do you mean the conditions are right? Does that mean that you have saved enough money. You have some free time, You have bought an airplane ticket, flown so many miles, to listen, to converse, with no idea that you will gain anything, that the trip will be of any value? Or do you mean that you have great barami that allows this all to unfold?


This is reading too much into the words. The conditions to listen to AS are not superior or inferior to the conditions for my writing now on Dhamma Wheel. It simply means, everything arises by conditions. One of the main conditions for chanda to listen to AS to arise is because I consider her to be a wise friend in the Dhamma, and associating with an wise friend and listening to his/her explanation on the Dhamma is recommended by the Buddha. But other conditions must be in place for something to happen that we can't enumerate here. The point is to understand that it is not me or my doing, and not mistaking the activity to be actual vipassana bhavana it-self.

And when that moment of understanding arises do you let it pass away


Understanding arises and passes away by its own nature. No one to let it pass away. But if it did happen, it can condition other moments, such as moments of wanting to share that understanding with others. It can be considered by others as right or wrong understanding, it is up to their own accumulations....

Brgds,
D.F

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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby dhamma follower » Sat Feb 16, 2013 7:12 am

beeblebrox wrote:After all that's been said in here, I think it's a good thing that the Buddha made dukkha the entry point for his practice... it's the first noble truth. Without it, the practice of the eightfold path would not even be possible. That includes the right view, its wisdom, and right mindfulness.

:anjali:


Dear BBB,

Discussing the First Noble Truth could be a good topic for a new thread.

Thank you,

Brgds,
D.F

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tiltbillings
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Feb 16, 2013 7:17 am

dhamma follower wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
dhamma follower wrote: What has been said it's that understanding can not be made to arise at will.
And as has been repeatedly said to you, no one here is claiming that wisdom can be made to arise at will. But what has been pointed out to you at length is that following the Buddha's clear teachings i sthat we can by our actions cultivate by meditation, by sila, by putting into practice the Eightfold Path the conditions that give rise to insight. It is by our actions, our choices that we do this.

. . . it is the panna cetasika it self which is cultivated gradually by its own conditions . . .
The logic of what you are presenting here is that the only way one can become awakened is by first being awakened, and there is not anything one can do about it.

Fortunately, that is not what the Buddha what the taught.
.


++++++++++++++++
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby polarbear101 » Sat Feb 16, 2013 7:37 am

dhamma follower wrote:
In other words, you must choose to act -- proper consideration -- upon what you heard.


What you say here amounts to say you can make wisdom- wise consideration- to arise at will.
In reality, no one can choose to have wise consideration. Sometime it happens, other times- more often, it doesn't.
It is self view which conceives the "self" who can control in what is only a conditioned dhamma.

Brgds,
D.F


Conditions exert force on/control other conditions. It's ridiculous, you're playing semantics. Appropriate attention only arises when one actually strives to look at things in certain terms, according to certain concepts, that they have learned of their own will and put into practice. Eventually appropriate attention results in deep understanding (aka wisdom) but in order for wisdom to arise you first have to deliberately look at things with appropriate attention. Anyway, if you can't accept this then this conversation will go nowhere.

:sage:
Last edited by polarbear101 on Fri Mar 01, 2013 5:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."

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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Feb 16, 2013 8:07 am

dhamma follower wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
dhamma follower wrote: I listen to AS because there are conditions for that to happen, just like now, I am writing on Dhammawheel, because there are conditions for that.
Yes; you deliberately chose to do so.



Does the word "deliberately" imply there is a self there making the choice? Isn't making choice- cetana also conditioned?
We have already discussed that. I am saying here nothing more and nothing less than what the Buddha said.

In other words, you must choose to act -- proper consideration -- upon what you heard.


What you say here amounts to say you can make wisdom- wise consideration- to arise at will.
Again, this is something that has already been discussed at length, but you insist, because you are conditioned to, no doubt, to keep repeating the Sujin talking points and not really engaging what is being said to you. What one does, in following the teachings of the Buddha as clearly put forth in the suttas, is to cultivate the conditions that give rise to insight.

In reality, no one can choose to have wise consideration.
In reality, according to the Buddha, as he taught in the suttas, one can cultivate the factors that give rise to insight.

It is self view which conceives the "self" who can control in what is only a conditioned dhamma.
Again, you repeat the straw-man argument. No one is positing an unchanging self agent. What I am putting forth is consistent with the Buddha's teachings:

    Samyutta Nikaya III 144: "Bhikkhus [monks, the Buddha said, holding
    a fleck of dung on his palm], if even if that much of permanent,
    everlasting, eternal individual selfhood/metaphysical being [attabhava],
    not inseparable from the idea of change, could be found, then this living
    the holy life could not be taught by me."

The fact that there is no attabhava is what allows for the possibilities of choice in how we act, and how our choices condition our movement towards or away from awakening:

    This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

Fortunately the Buddha does not agree with your passive approach to awakening:

    Dhammapada: 23. The wise ones, ever meditative and steadfastly persevering, alone experience Nibbana, the incomparable freedom from bondage.

    25. By effort and heedfulness, discipline and self-mastery, let the wise one make for himself an island which no flood can overwhelm.

    33. Just as a fletcher straightens an arrow shaft, even so the discerning man straightens his mind — so fickle and unsteady, so difficult to guard.

    36. Let the discerning man guard the mind, so difficult to detect and extremely subtle, seizing whatever it desires. A guarded mind brings happiness.

    91. The mindful ones exert themselves. They are not attached to any home; like swans that abandon the lake, they leave home after home behind.

    110. Better it is to live one day virtuous and meditative than to live a hundred years immoral and uncontrolled.

    111. Better it is to live one day wise and meditative than to live a hundred years foolish and uncontrolled.

    112. Better it is to live one day strenuous and resolute than to live a hundred years sluggish and dissipated.

    116. Hasten to do good; restrain your mind from evil. He who is slow in doing good, his mind delights in evil.

    117. Should a person commit evil, let him not do it again and again. Let him not find pleasure therein, for painful is the accumulation of evil.

    118. Should a person do good, let him do it again and again. Let him find pleasure therein, for blissful is the accumulation of good.

    121. Think not lightly of evil, saying, "It will not come to me." Drop by drop is the water pot filled. Likewise, the fool, gathering it little by little, fills himself with evil.

    122. Think not lightly of good, saying, "It will not come to me." Drop by drop is the water pot filled. Likewise, the wise man, gathering it little by little, fills himself with good.

    158. One should first establish oneself in what is proper; then only should one instruct others. Thus the wise man will not be reproached.

    165. By oneself is evil done; by oneself is one defiled. By oneself is evil left undone; by oneself is one made pure. Purity and impurity depend on oneself; no one can purify another.

    183. To avoid all evil, to cultivate good, and to cleanse one's mind — this is the teaching of the Buddhas.

    226. Those who are ever vigilant, who discipline themselves day and night, and are ever intent upon Nibbana — their defilements fade away.

    236. Make an island for yourself! Strive hard and become wise! Rid of impurities and cleansed of stain, you shall enter the celestial abode of the Noble Ones.

    239. One by one, little by little, moment by moment, a wise man should remove his own impurities, as a smith removes his dross from silver.

    276. You yourselves must strive; the Buddhas only point the way. Those meditative ones who tread the path are released from the bonds of Mara.

    281. Let a man be watchful of speech, well controlled in mind, and not commit evil in bodily action. Let him purify these three courses of action, and win the path made known by the Great Sage.

    282. Wisdom springs from meditation; without meditation wisdom wanes. Having known these two paths of progress and decline, let a man so conduct himself that his wisdom may increase.

    327. Delight in heedfulness! Guard well your thoughts! Draw yourself out of this bog of evil, even as an elephant draws himself out of the mud.

    348. Let go of the past, let go of the future, let go of the present, and cross over to the farther shore of existence. With mind wholly liberated, you shall come no more to birth and death.

    350. He who delights in subduing evil thoughts, who meditates on the impurities and is ever mindful — it is he who will make an end of craving and rend asunder Mara's fetter.

    360. Good is restraint over the eye; good is restraint over the ear; good is restraint over the nose; good is restraint over the tongue.

    361. Good is restraint in the body; good is restraint in speech; good is restraint in thought. Restraint everywhere is good. The monk restrained in every way is freed from all suffering.

    369. Empty this boat, O monk! Emptied, it will sail lightly. Rid of lust and hatred, you shall reach Nibbana.

    379. By oneself one must censure oneself and scrutinize oneself. The self-guarded and mindful monk will always live in happiness.

    380. One is one's own protector, one is one's own refuge. Therefore, one should control oneself, even as a trader controls a noble steed.

    383. Exert yourself, O holy man! Cut off the stream (of craving), and discard sense desires. Knowing the destruction of all the conditioned things, become, O holy man, the knower of the Uncreated (Nibbana)!

    388. Because he has discarded evil, he is called a holy man. Because he is serene in conduct, he is called a recluse. And because he has renounced his impurities, he is called a renunciate.

    391. He who does no evil in deed, word and thought, who is restrained in these three ways — him do I call a holy man.
.


++++++++++++++++
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Mr Man
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby Mr Man » Sat Feb 16, 2013 8:20 am

dhamma follower wrote:
Mr Man wrote:
dhamma follower wrote:I listen to AS because there are conditions for that to happen,

Would you go into that a bit more please? What do you mean the conditions are right? Does that mean that you have saved enough money. You have some free time, You have bought an airplane ticket, flown so many miles, to listen, to converse, with no idea that you will gain anything, that the trip will be of any value? Or do you mean that you have great barami that allows this all to unfold?


This is reading too much into the words.

It is just a series of questions.

dhamma follower wrote:The conditions to listen to AS are not superior or inferior to the conditions for my writing now on Dhamma Wheel. It simply means, everything arises by conditions. One of the main conditions for chanda to listen to AS to arise is because I consider her to be a wise friend in the Dhamma, and associating with an wise friend and listening to his/her explanation on the Dhamma is recommended by the Buddha. But other conditions must be in place for something to happen that we can't enumerate here.

Why can't you enumerate here?
dhamma follower wrote:The point is to understand that it is not me or my doing, and not mistaking the activity to be actual vipassana bhavana it-self.
Mr Man wrote:And when that moment of understanding arises do you let it pass away

Understanding arises and passes away by its own nature. No one to let it pass away.

dhamma follower from my perspective it seems like you are just playing with language here. When you say "to understand" this implies an agent. You are not being consistent
dhamma follower wrote:But if it did happen, it can condition other moments, such as moments of wanting to share that understanding with others.
Which is what you are doing here?
dhamma follower wrote:It can be considered by others as right or wrong understanding, it is up to their own accumulations....
What does this mean? Is accumulations "Barami". Does it mean that if we don't get it there isn't the "Barami" and if we do there is?

dhamma follower from my perspective it seems like there is oodles of conceit here and a good dollop of superstition and as the saying goes "if it quacks like a duck".

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beeblebrox
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby beeblebrox » Sat Feb 16, 2013 11:18 am

dhamma follower wrote:
beeblebrox wrote:After all that's been said in here, I think it's a good thing that the Buddha made dukkha the entry point for his practice... it's the first noble truth. Without it, the practice of the eightfold path would not even be possible. That includes the right view, its wisdom, and right mindfulness.


Dear BBB,

Discussing the First Noble Truth could be a good topic for a new thread.

Thank you,

Brgds,
D.F


Hi Dhamma Follower,

It seems like you missed the point.

I said that it's not possible for the wisdom to arise without dukkha, the first noble truth, in this practice...

I know that the appropriate attention is less likely to arise when there's no interest... but the post was very short. I think it's also a good practice to have the proper attention even with someone who isn't wise (such as me, for example), because then it will be more likely to arise when you have the opportunity to listen to someone who is actually wise...

This is similar to practicing the mindfulness... because then you will have the skill when the wisdom arises.

:anjali:

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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby dhamma follower » Tue Feb 19, 2013 12:13 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
. . . it is the panna cetasika it self which is cultivated gradually by its own conditions . . . [/quote]The logic of what you are presenting here is that the only way one can become awakened is by first being awakened, and there is not anything one can do about it.

Fortunately, that is not what the Buddha what the taught.[/quote]

Dear Tilt,

The logic here is that without the Buddha, no enlightenment possible. Hearing the Dhamma he taught followed by proper understanding, again and again, that is how the Path is cultivated.

As we know, what is called a person is only rupa, citta and cetasika. Only panna can actually be said to perform the function of "cultivating the path". Whenever panna arises, other wholesome factor such as right concentration, right effort, right thinking arise too.

Cetana (volition), or chanda (wish-to-do) are not factors of the Path. Whether they are wholesome or unwholesome depends on other accompanied mental factors. Similarly, concentration can bi right or wrong, depending on other cetasikas.

So when you maintain that there can be a path out of suffering which should be cultivated, I totally agree. However, chanda or cetana can not lead the show, but it is understanding which does. We might think that now, I have understood, then I will practice. But if you consider that each moment is different, the moment you intend to be mindful is not the moment where there is actually sati-sampajana. Cetana can not condition sati-sampajana to arise, as we have agreed. So actually, it is a previous moment of right understanding which conditions it. And right understanding at the beginning is intellectual, it can later condition the moment of direct understanding when it becomes firm and powerful enough.

When you listen to the Dhamma and have right understanding of how all dhammas are beyond control, it can give rise to many moments of wholesomeness. The emphasis on this impossibility to do something about it might appear to be a passive stance, but actually passive or active do not really apply, because there's no one to be passive or active about the Path, only understanding can make it grow.

Brgds,
D.F

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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby dhamma follower » Tue Feb 19, 2013 12:37 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
    This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

Fortunately the Buddha does not agree with your passive approach to awakening:

[list]Dhammapada: 23. The wise ones, ever meditative and steadfastly persevering, alone experience Nibbana, the incomparable freedom from bondage.



You have quoted many of the Buddha's words exhorting people to be steadfast in their quest for deliverance. However, when the Buddha said things like this, IMO, it doesn't mean that now it is volition and effort rather than understanding which lead the path. His words are like reminder which condition a sense of urgency, which can condition other moments of sati-sampajana. All his teachings must be in conformity with each other. That's how I understand different things that are said in different contexts, all provide conditions for wholesome state of mind to arise.

D.F


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