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Awareness independent of the 6 senses? (Thanissaro) - Page 2 - Dhamma Wheel

Awareness independent of the 6 senses? (Thanissaro)

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Modus.Ponens
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Re: Awareness independent of the 6 senses? (Thanissaro)

Postby Modus.Ponens » Wed Feb 06, 2013 2:45 pm

Sorry for the off topic question but it is related to the previous posts. If the mods want, they can create a new topic with this.

When I sleep, even though I'm unconscious (in a sense of the word), I can tell aproximately how much time I was sleeping. That means that there is some form of active mental phenomena going on while I'm sleeping. Plus, the brain never stops working at night, so one is not totaly unconscious during sleep, even when we're not dreaming. So the question is how does the mind perceive time? Is it included in the 6th sense? (even though I'm not an abidhamma fan, I wouldn't mind hearing what it has to say, as long as it is pointed out that it is abidhammic in origin).
He turns his mind away from those phenomena, and having done so, inclines his mind to the property of deathlessness: 'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.'
(Jhana Sutta - Thanissaro Bhikkhu translation)

Coyote
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Re: Awareness independent of the 6 senses? (Thanissaro)

Postby Coyote » Wed Feb 06, 2013 5:35 pm

I'm very ignorant of technical details, but isn't the "consciousness without footing" the consciousness that takes Nibbana as its object i.e Lokkutara Citta (?), Magga-Phala citta ect.?

:anjali:
"If beings knew, as I know, the results of giving & sharing, they would not eat without having given, nor would the stain of miserliness overcome their minds. Even if it were their last bite, their last mouthful, they would not eat without having shared."
Iti 26

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Spiny Norman
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Re: Awareness independent of the 6 senses? (Thanissaro)

Postby Spiny Norman » Thu Feb 07, 2013 11:09 am

"My religion is very simple - my religion is ice-cream."
Dairy Lama

Buckwheat
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Re: Awareness independent of the 6 senses? (Thanissaro)

Postby Buckwheat » Thu Feb 07, 2013 2:44 pm

Sotthī hontu nirantaraṃ - May you forever be well.

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reflection
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Re: Awareness independent of the 6 senses? (Thanissaro)

Postby reflection » Sat Feb 09, 2013 12:23 am


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ground
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Re: Awareness independent of the 6 senses? (Thanissaro)

Postby ground » Sat Feb 09, 2013 1:33 pm


SarathW
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Re: Awareness independent of the 6 senses? (Thanissaro)

Postby SarathW » Sun Feb 10, 2013 3:22 am

Hi Ground
Thanks for sharing the link. This is the first time I heard someone saying that there is a awareness (consciousness) independent of this body! I have such a great respect for Ven. Thanissaro and no reason to doubt him. However we should seek more information to see what exactly he meant by his statement.
Is he talking about Nama Rupa aspect of dependent origination (Based on Namarupa Salayathana arises) However Namarupa is not independent of Salayathana.
Buddha never said that there is anything that we can perceive outside of our body. Even Nirvana is realized within our body not outside of it.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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drifting cloud
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Re: Awareness independent of the 6 senses? (Thanissaro)

Postby drifting cloud » Wed Feb 13, 2013 1:05 am


SarathW
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Re: Awareness independent of the 6 senses? (Thanissaro)

Postby SarathW » Wed Feb 13, 2013 3:10 am

Hi drifting cloud

I am again baffled by the article. Which says:

----------------
This book has been many years in preparation. It began from a casual remark made one evening by my meditation teacher — Phra Ajaan Fuang Jotiko — to the effect that the mind released is like fire that has gone out: The fire is not annihilated, he said, but is still there, diffused in the air; it simply no longer latches on to any fuel.
---------------

As far as I know it is wrong to say, fire still there. There is nothing called fire, it arises due to conditions!
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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reflection
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Re: Awareness independent of the 6 senses? (Thanissaro)

Postby reflection » Wed Feb 13, 2013 1:57 pm


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kirk5a
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Re: Awareness independent of the 6 senses? (Thanissaro)

Postby kirk5a » Wed Feb 13, 2013 3:20 pm

"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

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drifting cloud
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Re: Awareness independent of the 6 senses? (Thanissaro)

Postby drifting cloud » Wed Feb 13, 2013 6:00 pm

Last edited by drifting cloud on Wed Feb 13, 2013 6:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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drifting cloud
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Re: Awareness independent of the 6 senses? (Thanissaro)

Postby drifting cloud » Wed Feb 13, 2013 6:18 pm


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drifting cloud
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Re: Awareness independent of the 6 senses? (Thanissaro)

Postby drifting cloud » Wed Feb 13, 2013 6:27 pm


SarathW
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Re: Awareness independent of the 6 senses? (Thanissaro)

Postby SarathW » Wed Feb 13, 2013 10:35 pm

Hi Drifting Cloud
You wrote:
----
the Suttas also mention a different kind of "consciousness", which perhaps does not require an object.
----
You baffled me again! I have never heard something like this! Where did you learn this? Can you give me the Suttas reference and link if you can?
As far as I know consciounness arises due to reasons. (Fine material (say Strings) or gross materials or objects)
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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polarbear101
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Re: Awareness independent of the 6 senses? (Thanissaro)

Postby polarbear101 » Wed Feb 13, 2013 10:53 pm

Last edited by polarbear101 on Tue Feb 19, 2013 5:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."

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reflection
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Re: Awareness independent of the 6 senses? (Thanissaro)

Postby reflection » Thu Feb 14, 2013 12:47 am

Why not discuss nibbana? It's the goal of the practice, so we better have an idea what it is. :)

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polarbear101
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Re: Awareness independent of the 6 senses? (Thanissaro)

Postby polarbear101 » Thu Feb 14, 2013 3:13 am

"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."

Buckwheat
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Re: Awareness independent of the 6 senses? (Thanissaro)

Postby Buckwheat » Fri Feb 15, 2013 3:48 pm

Phenomena are neither eternal nor nihilistic. After death, the Tathagata can neither be said to exist nor not exist.

When did consciousness without feature become "metaphysical." While at my level of practice I'm still letting go of very basic hang-ups, I can still see how, as the mind calms, consciousness is less and less outward oriented (less clingy). It is not difficult for me to believe the Buddha was able to achieve a consciousness without feature. This form of consciousness is way beyond my understanding, and discussion of it's existence or being a later addition to the canon all requires wisom far beyond my current capacity. So if for that reason you want to cease the discussion, I am on board with you. But I don't really like to label it metaphysical.

There are some properties of magnetism that seem very "magical" or "metaphysical" to me. But really, they are cold hard physical truths. My labels have no impact on the world. Only on my experience of the world.
Sotthī hontu nirantaraṃ - May you forever be well.

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reflection
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Re: Awareness independent of the 6 senses? (Thanissaro)

Postby reflection » Sat Feb 16, 2013 11:13 pm

:)

I can see how one would just be interested in 'the ending of suffering', and doesn't need to go much deeper. But then again, what is suffering? That's of course the question then. Would consciousness still be suffering, or wouldn't it?.. And so how much do we need to let go?

But depending on how you define metaphysics, there also isn't really anything metaphysical about nibbana being the end of existence. You can get an idea of what it is, without experiencing it. For me it has always been so straightforward and yet challenging answer, it almost had to be true. Makes this heart jump inside, if you know what I mean. It's like a 'truth detector'. A 'featureless consciousness' just never rang the same bell and I can't imagine the Buddha ever having meant this as the end of suffering.

Then again, if our paths slowly but surely take us onto higher peace, that's the road we have to take. If we notice anywhere our points of view are causing a block, then it's important to question them once again. Until then, there is much work to be done. Nomatter what our points of view are at the moment.

With loads a metta!


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