Becoming

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Re: Becoming

Postby Aloka » Sun Feb 10, 2013 11:54 am

I've added more of his talk to the quote.
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Re: Becoming

Postby SDC » Sun Feb 10, 2013 4:06 pm

porpoise wrote:Jason, it sounds like you're familiar with Thanissaro's ideas, so could you say briefly what evidence he provides to support the assertion that becoming means a sense of identity in a particular world of experience? I can't see any support for this idea in sutta descriptions of dependent origination, so presumably this relates to the use of bhava in other contexts?


Based on current English translations, I can't find "direct" sutta support either.

I think you are asking Jason something separate but just to clarify, I said bhāva is NOT merely an identity view, it is an "I exist in a world" view.
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Re: Becoming

Postby reflection » Sun Feb 10, 2013 7:40 pm

As some suggested before, I also translate it as "existence". Existence as in the usual interpretation. That makes it all a lot clearer, at least to me. Then again, I don't think dependent origination is meant to explain some moment-to-moment process, so I don't need to go into troubles finding another translation. Now simply, as long as there is craving, there will be new existence.
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Re: Becoming

Postby Chi » Mon Feb 11, 2013 12:04 am

One teacher told me that becoming means "being a person who experiences something."
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Re: Becoming

Postby Spiny Norman » Mon Feb 11, 2013 10:14 am

Aloka wrote:I've added more of his talk to the quote.


The difficulty I still have with this interpretation is that it depends on birth and death being psychological ( mental ). But in the suttas birth and death are clearly described in physical terms - which logically means that bhava ( their condition ) is a process with both physical and mental aspects, not just a mental process.
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Re: Becoming

Postby Spiny Norman » Mon Feb 11, 2013 10:23 am

SDC wrote:I think you are asking Jason something separate but just to clarify, I said bhāva is NOT merely an identity view, it is an "I exist in a world" view.


I don't think bhava is a view, I think it's the result of a view - ultimately ignorance in the context of DO.
I think "becoming" is a good translation for bhava because it gives the sense of a dynamic process, but the suttas strongly suggest it has both physical and mental aspects.
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Re: Becoming

Postby SDC » Tue Feb 12, 2013 2:49 am

porpoise wrote:
SDC wrote:I think you are asking Jason something separate but just to clarify, I said bhāva is NOT merely an identity view, it is an "I exist in a world" view.


I don't think bhava is a view, I think it's the result of a view - ultimately ignorance in the context of DO.
I think "becoming" is a good translation for bhava because it gives the sense of a dynamic process, but the suttas strongly suggest it has both physical and mental aspects.


Right on, porpoise. To each their own.

Perhaps we could venture into a discussion of the entire PS at a later date.
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Re: Becoming

Postby lojong1 » Thu Feb 14, 2013 5:39 am

Becoming/bhava and the bhavana of let's say anapanasati bhavana or metta bhavana...is this the same idea?
(I have still not read the book)
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Re: Becoming

Postby polarbuddha101 » Thu Feb 14, 2013 6:46 am

lojong1 wrote:Becoming/bhava and the bhavana of let's say anapanasati bhavana or metta bhavana...is this the same idea?
(I have still not read the book)


Interesting connection, I know bhavana means cultivation which is a process of change and growth, perhaps that would lend some credence to the idea of bhava meaning becoming since the english word also signifies a state of change. Alternatively, one could just read the suttas with both translations in mind, i.e. existence and becoming.

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"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."
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Re: Becoming

Postby Spiny Norman » Thu Feb 14, 2013 10:35 am

polarbuddha101 wrote:
lojong1 wrote:Becoming/bhava and the bhavana of let's say anapanasati bhavana or metta bhavana...is this the same idea?
(I have still not read the book)


Interesting connection, I know bhavana means cultivation which is a process of change and growth, perhaps that would lend some credence to the idea of bhava meaning becoming since the english word also signifies a state of change. Alternatively, one could just read the suttas with both translations in mind, i.e. existence and becoming.

:namaste:


Yes, I believe bhavana is derived from bhava. Bhavana has the meaning of developing or producing mental states, which appears to support the translation of bhava as "becoming" - though as a nidana bhava seems to have a more specific meaning, as described in MN9 and SN12.2.
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