The translation of Muditā

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beeblebrox
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Re: being envious of oneself Re: The translation of Muditā

Post by beeblebrox »

frank k wrote:Could these examples be considered being envious of one self?

The beautiful model who is aging and losing her beauty being envious of her youthful beauty?
The talented musician who is aging and can't compete with their younger selves?
The yogi who loses some attainments through health or lack of practice?

You could argue that it's the dukkha of losing what one had rather than being envious, but many people experiencing that kind of dukha has the wish, "I wish I could be that young talented/beautiful person again", which is a very typical emotion for that situation. dictionary.com defines envy as:
"a feeling of discontent or covetousness with regard to another's advantages, success, possessions, etc."
Based on that defintion, there definitely is discontent and covetousness with one's youthful self, so I would argue this qualifies as envy.
Hi Frank K.,

That seems like a strained use of the word envy... besides, it would be the young self (conventionally speaking) that one will be directing the mudita to, not to the present self.

Also, I don't think that this would be a skillful way of cultivating the mudita, for the purpose of liberation... because it's only directed to what's in the past, instead of what's currently at the hand.

In any case, the key word in the definition that you gave still seems to be "another."

:anjali:
theY
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Re: The translation of Muditā

Post by theY »

All Brahmavihāra is action into another (Pali:para, pare, paraṃ). See kakacūpamasuttaṃ @ mynm.mac.mula. 227/172,
[227] “pañcime, bhikkhave, vacanapathā yehi vo pare vadamānā vadeyyuṃ— kālena vā akālena vā;bhūtena vā abhūtena vā; saṇhena vā pharusena vā; atthasaṃhitena vā anatthasaṃhitena vā; mettacittāvā dosantarā vāฯ kālena vā, bhikkhave, pare vadamānā vadeyyuṃ akālena vā; bhūtena vā,bhikkhave, pare vadamānā vadeyyuṃ abhūtena vā; saṇhena vā, bhikkhave, pare vadamānā vadeyyuṃpharusena vā; atthasaṃhitena vā, bhikkhave, pare vadamānā vadeyyuṃ anatthasaṃhitena vā; mettacittā vā, bhikkhave, pare vadamānā vadeyyuṃ dosantarā vāฯ tatrāpi vo, bhikkhave, evaṃsikkhitabbaṃ— ‘na ceva no cittaṃ vipariṇataṃ bhavissati, na ca pāpikaṃ vācaṃ nicchāressāma, hitānukampī ca viharissāma mettacittā, na dosantarāฯ tañca puggalaṃ mettāsahagatena cetasāpharitvā viharissāma, tadārammaṇañca sabbāvantaṃ lokaṃ mettāsahagatena cittena vipulenamahaggatena appamāṇena averena abyābajjhena ‚ pharitvā viharissāmā’tiฯ evañhi vo,bhikkhave, sikkhitabbaṃฯ
or below quote, nissāraṇīyasuttaṃ @ mynm.ang.chakka. 13/11 .
[13] “chayimā, bhikkhave, nissāraṇīyā dhātuyoฯ katamā cha? idha, bhikkhave, bhikkhu evaṃvadeyya— ‘mettā hi kho me cetovimutti bhāvitā bahulīkatā yānīkatā vatthukatā anuṭṭhitā paricitā susamāraddhā; atha ca pana me byāpādo cittaṃ pariyādāya tiṭṭhatī’tiฯ so ‘māheva’ntissa vacanīyo— ‘māyasmā, evaṃ avaca; mā bhagavantaṃ abbhācikkhi, na hi sādhu bhagavatoabbhakkhānaṃ, na hi bhagavā evaṃ vadeyyaฯ aṭṭhānametaṃ, āvuso, anavakāso yaṃ mettāya cetovimuttiyā bhāvitāya bahulīkatāya yānīkatāya vatthukatāya anuṭṭhitāya paricitāya susamāraddhāya;atha ca panassa byāpādo cittaṃ pariyādāya ṭhassati ‚, netaṃ ṭhānaṃ vijjatiฯ nissaraṇañhetaṃ, āvuso,byāpādassa yadidaṃ mettācetovimuttī”’ti ‚ฯ
“idha pana, bhikkhave, bhikkhu evaṃ vadeyya— ‘karuṇā hi kho me cetovimutti bhāvitā bahulīkatā yānīkatā vatthukatā anuṭṭhitā paricitā susamāraddhā; atha ca pana me vihesā cittaṃ pariyādāya tiṭṭhatī’tiฯ so ‘mā heva’ntissa vacanīyo— ‘māyasmā, evaṃ avaca; mā bhagavantaṃ abbhācikkhi, na hi sādhu bhagavato abbhakkhānaṃ, na hi bhagavā evaṃ vadeyyaฯ aṭṭhānametaṃ, āvuso, anavakāso yaṃ karuṇāya cetovimuttiyā bhāvitāya bahulīkatāya yānīkatāya vatthukatāya anuṭṭhitāyaparicitāya susamāraddhāya; atha ca panassa vihesā cittaṃ pariyādāya ṭhassati, netaṃ ṭhānaṃ vijjatiฯnissaraṇañhetaṃ, āvuso, vihesāya yadidaṃ karuṇācetovimuttī”’tiฯ
So, arati must be act into another, too, because it is in brahmavihāra's context. See mahārāhulovādasuttaṃ @ 120/87.
[120] “mettaṃ, rāhula, bhāvanaṃ bhāvehiฯ mettañhi te, rāhula, bhāvanaṃ bhāvayato yobyāpādo so pahīyissatiฯ karuṇaṃ, rāhula, bhāvanaṃ bhāvehiฯ karuṇañhi te, rāhula, bhāvanaṃbhāvayato yā vihesā sā pahīyissatiฯ muditaṃ, rāhula, bhāvanaṃ bhāvehiฯ muditañhi te,rāhula, bhāvanaṃ bhāvayato yā arati sā pahīyissatiฯ
-In pali-- muda=modanā. Anu=sub-action. Anumodanā= often modanā after pre-action, that will make vipāka. And mudita is ta-paccaya at the end mean "acted".

So muditā is pre-action--modana in vipāka, that formed from the action, that we had anumoditā.

-In pali-- rati=love, and Arati=hate (āratī viraī pāpā--maṅgalasuttaṃ).

So, Arati is "Hating in another's vipāka, that formed from the action, that we had anumoditā. "

-Where is the sutta about hating/loving in another vipāka?

See below, cūḷakammavibhaṅgasuttaṃ ‚@ mynm.mac.upari. 293/246.
idha pana, māṇava, ekacco itthī vā puriso vā anissāmanako hoti; paralābhasakkāragarukāramānanavandanapūjanāsu na issati na upadussati na issaṃ bandhatiฯ so tena kammena evaṃ samattenaevaṃ samādinnena kāyassa bhedā paraṃ maraṇā sugati๎ saggaṃ lokaṃ upapajjatiฯ no ce kāyassa bhedāparaṃ maraṇā sugati๎ saggaṃ lokaṃ upapajjati, sace manussattaṃ āgacchati yattha yattha paccājāyatimahesakkho hotiฯ mahesakkhasaṃvattanikā esā, māṇava, paṭipadā yadidaṃ— anissāmanako hoti; paralābhasakkāragarukāramānanavandanapūjanāsu na issati na upadussati na issaṃ bandhatiฯ
So, abhidhamma, and commentary of sāriputta school wrote about arati==issā.

So, I had quoted below from commentary:
theY wrote:Ok, I found it.

Muditā Definition:
1. Gladness is characterized as gladdening (produced by others’ success).
2. Its function resides in being unenvious.
3. It is manifested as the elimination of aversion (boredom).
4. Its proximate cause is seeing beings, success.

It succeeds when it makes aversion (boredom) subside, and it fails when it produces merriment.
Visuddhimagga No.95 Pg. 311
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Last edited by DNS on Tue Feb 19, 2013 5:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Inflammatory speech against "anti-commentary people" (poster's term) removed.
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Dhammanando
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Re: being envious of oneself Re: The translation of Muditā

Post by Dhammanando »

frank k wrote:Could these examples be considered being envious of one self?

The beautiful model who is aging and losing her beauty being envious of her youthful beauty?
Is the aging model (musician, yogi) afflicted with some dissociative disorder, such that she supposes her remembered younger self to be a wholly different person, lacking any causal continuity with her present self? If she is, then I suppose that there may arise in her envy towards her past self whom she perceives to be someone else. I’ll leave it to any shrinks who might be reading this to pronounce on whether such a thing is actually possible. But even supposing that it is, clearly we would be talking about a psychologically very exceptional situation and not a sane puthujjana’s typical mental functioning.

On the other hand, if we are talking about an aging model experiencing the normal sort of misery that comes with losing one’s good looks, then I can only say ditto to Beeblebrox’s contribution. I don’t think the semantic range of ‘envy’ (even by your own quoted dictionary definition of it, let alone the very precise commentarial delimiting of issā) would extend to the scenarios you’re describing.
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frank k
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Re: The translation of Muditā

Post by frank k »

Thanks to all for the very stimulating discussion on mudita. I re-read the thread again, and am still feeling unsatisfied similarly to how starter expressed in his messages of why mudita can not be directed towards self. Since the brahmaviharas seems to be a pretty comprehensive system in expanding, refining love from selfish to selfless and boundless, I find it very odd that appreciative joy directed towards oneself is explicitly excluded.

In practicing metta and karuna towards our self, it can strengthen our foundation in that practice when we apply that practice to others. With appreciative joy, one of human nature's most common and serious defects is to not appreciate the good fortune that we have, but to feel discontent towards what we don't have, losing perspective of our overall good fortune. I find it a powerful practice to be frequently appreciative of the opportunity to encounter proper dhamma, have good dhamma friends, food to eat, etc.
By including this practice under mudita (as a brahmavihara), does it somehow lessen the ability for one to decrease envy, jealousy, and resentment towards others for the good fortune they encounter?
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Re: The translation of Muditā

Post by retrofuturist »

Well said Frank.

Especially this... "Since the brahmaviharas seems to be a pretty comprehensive system in expanding, refining love from selfish to selfless and boundless, I find it very odd that appreciative joy directed towards oneself is explicitly excluded."

"Selfless and boundless" would not discriminate between "self" and "other"...

Metta,
Retro. :)
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Re: The translation of Muditā

Post by SarathW »

May be a dumb question. If there is no “I” how can you extend Mudita for yourself? It depend on your advancement, I think. However in Metta Bhavana,
I was instructed to extend Metta towards myself too.
Mudita towards yourself can lead to one of the fetters- Mana, I think. :)
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retrofuturist
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Re: The translation of Muditā

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
SarathW wrote:May be a dumb question. If there is no “I” how can you extend Mudita for yourself? It depend on your advancement, I think.
Not a dumb question, but I'd suggest that perhaps mudita, metta etc. aren't "extended" per se - rather they are simply felt or experienced as a state of mind. Any matter of "extended" is a matter of technique, rather than anything inherent in the states of mind themselves.

If you do interpret them as being states of mind, whether the supposed object (and let's not forget that objects are anatta too!) underpinning that feeling is classifiable as "internal" or "external" would be a secondary concern at best. This would also seem compatible with the Abhidhammic mind-state model which does not differentiate in such a way between the internal and external.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
beeblebrox
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Re: The translation of Muditā

Post by beeblebrox »

retrofuturist wrote: "Selfless and boundless" would not discriminate between "self" and "other"...
Exactly... I think that's why there shouldn't be any problem in viewing this as a practice which is directed towards others. There is still going to be joy all around.

That doesn't mean that the person can't be happy for himself... but seems like that's technically not mudita. If that makes him unhappy that he couldn't call it mudita, then maybe that's envy?

:anjali:
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Re: The translation of Muditā

Post by SarathW »

It is impossible for happy for others,unless if he/she is happy for him/her self! :)
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starter
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Re: The translation of Muditā

Post by starter »

Hello friends,

Thanks for the helpful discussions. As I understand, the Dhamma practice is a step-by-step process. We first need to wash away the grossest "sand" and not to harm others; jealousy/covetousness directed toward others is more a grosser "sand" we need to get rid of than the finer "sand" of discontent directed toward ourselves, for the practice of non-cruelty/non-harming.

By the way, I'd appreciate an English translation of the following, if possible:

"cūḷakammavibhaṅgasuttaṃ ‚@ mynm.mac.upari. 293/246.

idha pana, māṇava, ekacco itthī vā puriso vā anissāmanako hoti; paralābhasakkāragarukāramānanavandanapūjanāsu na issati na upadussati na issaṃ bandhatiฯ so tena kammena evaṃ samattenaevaṃ samādinnena kāyassa bhedā paraṃ maraṇā sugati๎ saggaṃ lokaṃ upapajjatiฯ no ce kāyassa bhedāparaṃ maraṇā sugati๎ saggaṃ lokaṃ upapajjati, sace manussattaṃ āgacchati yattha yattha paccājāyatimahesakkho hotiฯ mahesakkhasaṃvattanikā esā, māṇava, paṭipadā yadidaṃ— anissāmanako hoti; paralābhasakkāragarukāramānanavandanapūjanāsu na issati na upadussati na issaṃ bandhatiฯ" [kindly provided by theY]

Metta to all!

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Re: The translation of Muditā

Post by tiltbillings »

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .nymo.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

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Re: The translation of Muditā

Post by Dhammanando »

starter wrote:By the way, I'd appreciate an English translation of the following, if possible:

"cūḷakammavibhaṅgasuttaṃ ‚@ mynm.mac.upari. 293/246.

idha pana, māṇava, ekacco itthī vā puriso vā anissāmanako hoti; paralābhasakkāragarukāramānanavandanapūjanāsu na issati na upadussati na issaṃ bandhatiฯ so tena kammena evaṃ samattenaevaṃ samādinnena kāyassa bhedā paraṃ maraṇā sugati๎ saggaṃ lokaṃ upapajjatiฯ no ce kāyassa bhedāparaṃ maraṇā sugati๎ saggaṃ lokaṃ upapajjati, sace manussattaṃ āgacchati yattha yattha paccājāyatimahesakkho hotiฯ mahesakkhasaṃvattanikā esā, māṇava, paṭipadā yadidaṃ— anissāmanako hoti; paralābhasakkāragarukāramānanavandanapūjanāsu na issati na upadussati na issaṃ bandhatiฯ" [kindly provided by theY]
  • "But here some woman or man is not envious, he does not envy, begrudge or harbor envy about others' gain, honor, veneration, respect, salutations and offerings. Due to having performed and completed such kammas, on the dissolution of the body, after death, he reappears in a happy destination... If instead he comes to the human state, he is influential wherever he is reborn. This is the way that leads to influence, that is to say, not to be envious, not to envy, begrudge or harbor envy about others' gain, honor, veneration, respect, salutations and offerings.
http://www.vipassana.com/canon/majjhima/mn135.php
Rūpehi bhikkhave arūpā santatarā.
Arūpehi nirodho santataro ti.


“Bhikkhus, the formless is more peaceful than the form realms.
Cessation is more peaceful than the formless realms.”
(Santatarasutta, Iti 73)
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Re: The translation of Muditā

Post by daverupa »

I would like to recommend a close study of SN 46.62-6 in this connection; of the possible ways to develop the factors for awakening, these five together show that the factors for awakening are to be developed alongside the brahmaviharas, as well as anapanasati. Relevant here, therefore, is the idea of developing the factors for awakening alongside mudita.

Pervading the surround is a description of practice we are familiar with; splicing this together with the factors for awakening doesn't seem to come up in conversations about the brahmaviharas very often (if at all?), but in any event there is no self/other talk when the factors are discussed in this way, and I thought it might help us zero in on a practical approach.

Possibly off-topic?
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: The translation of Muditā

Post by theY »

Hi all again,

Muditā in self is a learning step of muditā brāhmavihāra, it isn't a real bhāvanā.

So, bhadanta buddhaghosa said that 'brāhmavihāra brāhmavihāra in self, isn't the way to get jhāna'.

Commentary-teachers add this step for leaning brāhmavihāra-bhāvanā-citta by concentrating giving, pleasing, rejoicing, and ignoring in self.

What is the feeling when you want to make you comfortable, bring yourself out of dukkha, rejoice your good getting, or restraint one's mind off your mistaken thing.

See it, notice it then spread it to another all.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

Everybody, who just has read brahmavihāra in visuddhimagga, hasn't memorize and practice it, must misunderstand on this step--muditā in self.

Yes, Memorized person also misunderstand this step, too. but I'm not included. So, buddha very emphasis in memorization, because it is very important for understand in dhamma+vinaya.
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Re: The translation of Muditā

Post by Assaji »

Hi Daverupa,
daverupa wrote:I would like to recommend a close study of SN 46.62-6 in this connection; of the possible ways to develop the factors for awakening, these five together show that the factors for awakening are to be developed alongside the brahmaviharas, as well as anapanasati. Relevant here, therefore, is the idea of developing the factors for awakening alongside mudita.
This is very natural. One develops remembrance (sati) of mudita, discerns accordingly the mental behaviour (dhamma-vicaya), applies four right efforts (viriya), and enters jhanas (piti, passadhi, samadhi, upekkha) - much like described in Dvedhavitakka sutta and Mahanama sutta:

At any time when a disciple of the noble ones is recollecting the Tathagata, his mind is not overcome with passion, not overcome with aversion, not overcome with delusion. His mind heads straight, based on the Tathagata. And when the mind is headed straight, the disciple of the noble ones gains a sense of the goal, gains a sense of the Dhamma, gains joy connected with the Dhamma. In one who is joyful, rapture arises. In one who is rapturous, the body grows calm. One whose body is calmed experiences ease. In one at ease, the mind becomes concentrated.

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