
I have not a clue; I have not seen this book, but if Shi Huifeng/Ven Paññāsikhara says this book is of interest and worth reading, that is a very good recommedation, indeed.polarbuddha101 wrote:From my understanding, the main issue in the jhana debates is whether one is totally unaware of the 5 senses or whether jhana is very much connected to having a deep awareness of the whole physical body. Do you by chance know if Bronkhorst takes a position on this issue and if so what his opinion is regarding this matter?
tiltbillings wrote:I have not a clue; I have not seen this book, but if Shi Huifeng/Ven Paññāsikhara says this book is of interest and worth reading, that is a very good recommedation, indeed.polarbuddha101 wrote:From my understanding, the main issue in the jhana debates is whether one is totally unaware of the 5 senses or whether jhana is very much connected to having a deep awareness of the whole physical body. Do you by chance know if Bronkhorst takes a position on this issue and if so what his opinion is regarding this matter?
for the info!tiltbillings wrote:I have not a clue; I have not seen this book, but if Shi Huifeng/Ven Paññāsikhara says this book is of interest and worth reading, that is a very good recommedation,(sic) indeed.polarbuddha101 wrote:From my understanding, the main issue in the jhana debates is whether one is totally unaware of the 5 senses or whether jhana is very much connected to having a deep awareness of the whole physical body. Do you by chance know if Bronkhorst takes a position on this issue and if so what his opinion is regarding this matter?
amazon wrote:This book argues for the central role played by absorption in the functioning of the human mind. The importance of absorption makes itself felt in different ways; the two studies combined in this book concentrate on two of them. The first study, The Symbolic Mind, argues that, largely as a result of language acquisition, humans have two levels of cognition, which in normal circumstances are simultaneously active. Absorption is a (or the) means to circumvent some, perhaps all, of the associations that characterize one of these two levels of cognition, resulting in what is sometimes referred to as mystical experience, but which is not confined to mysticism and plays a role in various "religious" phenomena, and elsewhere. In the second study, The Psychology of the Buddha, Prof. Bronkhorst provides a theoretical context for the observation that absorption is a source of pleasure, grapples with Freud, and illustrates his observations through translations of ancient Buddhist texts from the Pali and Sanskrit languages along with his psychological commentary.
We have come as far as philology could take us, it seems. For a further understanding of Buddhist meditation, philology will probably not be of much help. An altogether different approach may be required to proceed further. Such a different approach does not fall within the scope of the present book. I may return to it in another study.

How does absorption fit into the model of the human mind constructed above?
Absorption is intense concentration. This, in its turn, is a form of attention. Attention can be
directed at, or away from sensory input and memory traces. It is important to note that for
attention to be directed at some things it will be withdrawn from others.163 Attention
withdrawn from memory traces ensures that these will not be activated (or will be less
activated). When attention is withdrawn from sensory input, it prevents this input from
activating memory traces. Either way no urges will be excited.
This leaves the question: What is the absorption referred to in the Buddhist textsHow does absorption fit into the model of the human mind constructed above?
Absorption is intense concentration. This, in its turn, is a form of attention. Attention can be
directed at, or away from sensory input and memory traces. It is important to note that for
attention to be directed at some things it will be withdrawn from others.163 Attention
withdrawn from memory traces ensures that these will not be activated (or will be less
activated). When attention is withdrawn from sensory input, it prevents this input from
activating memory traces. Either way no urges will be excited.
This leaves the question: What is the absorption referred to in the Buddhist texts directed at? The answer is that absorption can, but is not obliged to have an object. Like
attention, of which it is a more intense variant, absorption can occur without being directed at
anything in particular. The concentration of a fearful person who finds him- or herself in a
dark and isolated place is not initially directed at anything in particular.164 A suspect sound or
a moving shadow may give it a focus. This shows that it did not have one before. It appears
indeed that the faculty of attention in humans can be used without being wholly directed at
any specific object. Some of the neurological literature reviewed above supports this.165
How does absorption overcome repression? Imagine that our patient has successfully
entered into a state of absorption. As long as it lasts, no memory traces will be activated and
no urges will be excited. (An exception may have to be made for the memory traces and
associated urges to which our patient decides to direct his attention (or part of it).)166
Assuming that our patient has reduced the standby level of his bodily tension to an absolute
minimum, he now finds himself in an ideal situation to explore his urges and the memories to
which they are attached. Urges will announce themselves as feelings if and when the mind, in
this concentrated state, imagines an object or event related to them and thus activates the
relevant trace unit. The urges will announce themselves in the usual manner (though weakly)
by bringing about the appropriate bodily states (the emotions). These in their turn will be
perceived as feelings in the mind. The low degree of excitation of the urge, resulting from the
low degree of activation of the corresponding memory trace, deprives it of all danger. It
cannot manifest itself, for example in bodily activity. The minimal level of standby bodily
tension ensures that the conditions for repression are not fulfilled. As a result, the trace unit
can be integrated into the main unit, and the associated urge diffused.
polarbuddha101 wrote:From my understanding, the main issue in the jhana debates is whether one is totally unaware of the 5 senses or whether jhana is very much connected to having a deep awareness of the whole physical body. Do you by chance know if Bronkhorst takes a position on this issue and if so what his opinion is regarding this matter?
alan... wrote:polarbuddha101 wrote:From my understanding, the main issue in the jhana debates is whether one is totally unaware of the 5 senses or whether jhana is very much connected to having a deep awareness of the whole physical body. Do you by chance know if Bronkhorst takes a position on this issue and if so what his opinion is regarding this matter?
i recently read a book that posits the idea that the first four jhanas are concerned with the body and the senses still operate and only the arupa jhanas are total, senseless absorption. i think that's a valid interpretation.

polarbuddha101 wrote:alan... wrote:polarbuddha101 wrote:From my understanding, the main issue in the jhana debates is whether one is totally unaware of the 5 senses or whether jhana is very much connected to having a deep awareness of the whole physical body. Do you by chance know if Bronkhorst takes a position on this issue and if so what his opinion is regarding this matter?
i recently read a book that posits the idea that the first four jhanas are concerned with the body and the senses still operate and only the arupa jhanas are total, senseless absorption. i think that's a valid interpretation.
It is certainly not a bad or unsupported interpretation and it is the one I myself lean to, but others such as Ajahn Brahm and Ajahn Sujato would disagree and believe that in jhana there is only awareness of mental phenomena and not any awareness of the body or other sensory data. On here at DW, Sylvester often argues for the Sujato interpretation and Nana (Geoff) argues for the body awareness interpretation for example in viewtopic.php?f=43&t=5761 . This difference between body awareness and only mental awareness is also the major difference between the supposed 'visuddhimagga jhanas' and the supposed 'sutta jhanas.' I have never heard of a philologist of any other academic who is not a practitioner take a stance on this issue so I just thought it would be interesting to see what a non-practitioner would think about this issue because they would not have any biases from having been taught a certain way or by holding the commentaries as authoritative or for any other reason that a practitioner might have. But anyway, it was still a good book to read.
Sylvester wrote:Sigh, it looks like we're still stuck on the Pali present tense issue, in this case samanupassati, versus the English present tense...

Sylvester wrote:Check out this helpful enumeration of the functions of the Pali present tense outlined by Warder, courtesy of daverupa -
viewtopic.php?f=44&t=15480&start=20#p223661
That discussion pertained to AN 4.124's usage of the present tense samanupassati (regards) and whether it actually means contemporaneity with the standard periphrastic construction upasampajja viharati (dwells having entered) of the 1st jhana formula. The action denoted by the present tense samanupassati looks to me to be a very ruminative activity. How is that supposed to happen in the 2nd jhana onwards, as presented in AN 4.124, when vitakka and vicāra have disappeared?
Now, technically speaking, it might be possible for the samanupassati to be contemporaneous with jhana, if one argues that upasampajja (having entered) is an absolutive of contemporaneity. However, that is only truly possible if both verbs samanupassati and upasampajja are in the same sentence, each occupying its own clause (main and subordinate) therein. That's not the case here in AN 4.124. One also needs to surmount the same problem of samanupassati occuring in an environment that does not have vitakka nor vicāra .
The most typical way of indicating contemporaneity of action verbs in Pali would be to use the missakiriyā construction, where the sutta would have read something to the effect "having entered and dwelling in the 1st jhana, he contemplates...." (paṭhamaṃ jhānaṃ upasampajja viharanto, ... samanupassati). As far as I can tell in my survey of the suttas, the missakiriyā construction is never used in any of the jhana formulae.
As dave notes in that post, the most likely meaning of the present tense "regards" would be an activity that takes place in the future. We just need to be alive to Pali grammar and take these texts on their own terms, rather than lens them through English translations, no matter how literal the translation is. Most translators usually do not interpret the Pali present tense when they translate, since there are so many temporal and functional uses of the present tense. The only exception would be where the context makes it clear that the present tense is functioning as a past tense in a narrative.
Sylvester wrote:The action denoted by the present tense samanupassati looks to me to be a very ruminative activity. How is that supposed to happen in the 2nd jhana onwards, as presented in AN 4.124, when vitakka and vicāra have disappeared?
Sylvester wrote:We just need to be alive to Pali grammar and take these texts on their own terms, rather than lens them through English translations, no matter how literal the translation is. Most translators usually do not interpret the Pali present tense when they translate, since there are so many temporal and functional uses of the present tense. The only exception would be where the context makes it clear that the present tense is functioning as a past tense in a narrative.

Ñāṇa wrote:Sylvester wrote:The action denoted by the present tense samanupassati looks to me to be a very ruminative activity. How is that supposed to happen in the 2nd jhana onwards, as presented in AN 4.124, when vitakka and vicāra have disappeared?
Vitakka & vicāra aren't necessary, saññā is.
Sylvester wrote:I think while it is legitimate to acknowledge that the Sarvas and Sautrantikas understood their Indic languages well enough, it should be apparent from one of our previous posts that doctrinal evolution plays a very significant role in interpretation, eg the vitakka definitions taken up by the Yogacarins.
Sylvester wrote:This is my concern in appealing to medieval Buddhism to interpret Early Buddhism.
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