The translation of Muditā

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Re: The translation of Muditā

Postby SarathW » Wed Feb 20, 2013 11:41 pm

May be a dumb question. If there is no “I” how can you extend Mudita for yourself? It depend on your advancement, I think. However in Metta Bhavana,
I was instructed to extend Metta towards myself too.
Mudita towards yourself can lead to one of the fetters- Mana, I think. :)
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Re: The translation of Muditā

Postby retrofuturist » Thu Feb 21, 2013 12:03 am

Greetings,

SarathW wrote:May be a dumb question. If there is no “I” how can you extend Mudita for yourself? It depend on your advancement, I think.

Not a dumb question, but I'd suggest that perhaps mudita, metta etc. aren't "extended" per se - rather they are simply felt or experienced as a state of mind. Any matter of "extended" is a matter of technique, rather than anything inherent in the states of mind themselves.

If you do interpret them as being states of mind, whether the supposed object (and let's not forget that objects are anatta too!) underpinning that feeling is classifiable as "internal" or "external" would be a secondary concern at best. This would also seem compatible with the Abhidhammic mind-state model which does not differentiate in such a way between the internal and external.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: The translation of Muditā

Postby beeblebrox » Thu Feb 21, 2013 1:31 am

retrofuturist wrote:"Selfless and boundless" would not discriminate between "self" and "other"...


Exactly... I think that's why there shouldn't be any problem in viewing this as a practice which is directed towards others. There is still going to be joy all around.

That doesn't mean that the person can't be happy for himself... but seems like that's technically not mudita. If that makes him unhappy that he couldn't call it mudita, then maybe that's envy?

:anjali:
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Re: The translation of Muditā

Postby SarathW » Thu Feb 21, 2013 3:59 am

It is impossible for happy for others,unless if he/she is happy for him/her self! :)
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Re: The translation of Muditā

Postby starter » Thu Feb 21, 2013 7:18 pm

Hello friends,

Thanks for the helpful discussions. As I understand, the Dhamma practice is a step-by-step process. We first need to wash away the grossest "sand" and not to harm others; jealousy/covetousness directed toward others is more a grosser "sand" we need to get rid of than the finer "sand" of discontent directed toward ourselves, for the practice of non-cruelty/non-harming.

By the way, I'd appreciate an English translation of the following, if possible:

"cūḷakammavibhaṅgasuttaṃ ‚@ mynm.mac.upari. 293/246.

idha pana, māṇava, ekacco itthī vā puriso vā anissāmanako hoti; paralābhasakkāragarukāramānanavandanapūjanāsu na issati na upadussati na issaṃ bandhatiฯ so tena kammena evaṃ samattenaevaṃ samādinnena kāyassa bhedā paraṃ maraṇā sugati๎ saggaṃ lokaṃ upapajjatiฯ no ce kāyassa bhedāparaṃ maraṇā sugati๎ saggaṃ lokaṃ upapajjati, sace manussattaṃ āgacchati yattha yattha paccājāyatimahesakkho hotiฯ mahesakkhasaṃvattanikā esā, māṇava, paṭipadā yadidaṃ— anissāmanako hoti; paralābhasakkāragarukāramānanavandanapūjanāsu na issati na upadussati na issaṃ bandhatiฯ" [kindly provided by theY]

Metta to all!

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Re: The translation of Muditā

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Feb 21, 2013 7:39 pm

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: The translation of Muditā

Postby Dhammanando » Thu Feb 21, 2013 7:40 pm

starter wrote:By the way, I'd appreciate an English translation of the following, if possible:

"cūḷakammavibhaṅgasuttaṃ ‚@ mynm.mac.upari. 293/246.

idha pana, māṇava, ekacco itthī vā puriso vā anissāmanako hoti; paralābhasakkāragarukāramānanavandanapūjanāsu na issati na upadussati na issaṃ bandhatiฯ so tena kammena evaṃ samattenaevaṃ samādinnena kāyassa bhedā paraṃ maraṇā sugati๎ saggaṃ lokaṃ upapajjatiฯ no ce kāyassa bhedāparaṃ maraṇā sugati๎ saggaṃ lokaṃ upapajjati, sace manussattaṃ āgacchati yattha yattha paccājāyatimahesakkho hotiฯ mahesakkhasaṃvattanikā esā, māṇava, paṭipadā yadidaṃ— anissāmanako hoti; paralābhasakkāragarukāramānanavandanapūjanāsu na issati na upadussati na issaṃ bandhatiฯ" [kindly provided by theY]


    "But here some woman or man is not envious, he does not envy, begrudge or harbor envy about others' gain, honor, veneration, respect, salutations and offerings. Due to having performed and completed such kammas, on the dissolution of the body, after death, he reappears in a happy destination... If instead he comes to the human state, he is influential wherever he is reborn. This is the way that leads to influence, that is to say, not to be envious, not to envy, begrudge or harbor envy about others' gain, honor, veneration, respect, salutations and offerings.

http://www.vipassana.com/canon/majjhima/mn135.php
    ...and this thought arose in the mind of the Blessed One:
    “Who lives without reverence lives miserably.”
    Uruvela Sutta, A.ii.20

    It were endless to dispute upon everything that is disputable.
    — William Penn Some Fruits of Solitude,
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Re: The translation of Muditā

Postby daverupa » Thu Feb 21, 2013 8:54 pm

I would like to recommend a close study of SN 46.62-6 in this connection; of the possible ways to develop the factors for awakening, these five together show that the factors for awakening are to be developed alongside the brahmaviharas, as well as anapanasati. Relevant here, therefore, is the idea of developing the factors for awakening alongside mudita.

Pervading the surround is a description of practice we are familiar with; splicing this together with the factors for awakening doesn't seem to come up in conversations about the brahmaviharas very often (if at all?), but in any event there is no self/other talk when the factors are discussed in this way, and I thought it might help us zero in on a practical approach.

Possibly off-topic?
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: The translation of Muditā

Postby theY » Wed Feb 27, 2013 7:26 am

Hi all again,

Muditā in self is a learning step of muditā brāhmavihāra, it isn't a real bhāvanā.

So, bhadanta buddhaghosa said that 'brāhmavihāra brāhmavihāra in self, isn't the way to get jhāna'.

Commentary-teachers add this step for leaning brāhmavihāra-bhāvanā-citta by concentrating giving, pleasing, rejoicing, and ignoring in self.

What is the feeling when you want to make you comfortable, bring yourself out of dukkha, rejoice your good getting, or restraint one's mind off your mistaken thing.

See it, notice it then spread it to another all.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

Everybody, who just has read brahmavihāra in visuddhimagga, hasn't memorize and practice it, must misunderstand on this step--muditā in self.

Yes, Memorized person also misunderstand this step, too. but I'm not included. So, buddha very emphasis in memorization, because it is very important for understand in dhamma+vinaya.
Lesson Relationship of Abhidhammatthasaṅgaha (10/31/2012)
http://tipitakanews.org/en/node/61
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Re: The translation of Muditā

Postby Dmytro » Wed Feb 27, 2013 5:41 pm

Hi Daverupa,

daverupa wrote:I would like to recommend a close study of SN 46.62-6 in this connection; of the possible ways to develop the factors for awakening, these five together show that the factors for awakening are to be developed alongside the brahmaviharas, as well as anapanasati. Relevant here, therefore, is the idea of developing the factors for awakening alongside mudita.


This is very natural. One develops remembrance (sati) of mudita, discerns accordingly the mental behaviour (dhamma-vicaya), applies four right efforts (viriya), and enters jhanas (piti, passadhi, samadhi, upekkha) - much like described in Dvedhavitakka sutta and Mahanama sutta:

At any time when a disciple of the noble ones is recollecting the Tathagata, his mind is not overcome with passion, not overcome with aversion, not overcome with delusion. His mind heads straight, based on the Tathagata. And when the mind is headed straight, the disciple of the noble ones gains a sense of the goal, gains a sense of the Dhamma, gains joy connected with the Dhamma. In one who is joyful, rapture arises. In one who is rapturous, the body grows calm. One whose body is calmed experiences ease. In one at ease, the mind becomes concentrated.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
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