Myanmar Buddhism VS Capitalism... Cross-Roads ?

[theY]

Hi dear all,

I follow the news about Capitalism in Myanmar. I am worry a little bit in buddhism cycle status that may destroy by Capitalism.

In thailand, our bhikkhus can't memorize bhikkhunipātimokkha, can't memorize vibhaṅga, and lost our abhidhamma + vinaya study cycle**. They began since Capitalism came to thailand.

Our bhikkhu stop to memorize tipitaka and try to learn more in layman's subjects, since democracy had come.

Nowadays we have (fake) theravada bikkhunis who dress underpants, live alone when the fist sunshine come, and be ordained by mahāyāna-saṅgha T-T

So, I want to talk with you, Theravada-Buddhist, about this situation. How can we preserve that most strict, in dhamma and vinaya, country from Capitalist Effect?

How about buddhism situation in Myanmar?

How about the monastery plan?

Pā-Auk, Mahāvisuddhārāma will became tourist attractions, or not?

Myanmars Bhikkhus will lose their memorizing, or not ?

They always stick in dhamma and vinaya, or not ?

Let's discuss about above question, and another titles about Myanmar Buddhism VS Capitalism more.

Because we are on critical period--after second half of buddhist generation!

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**Thank you, bhadanta vilāsa, bhadanta jotika, who let abhidhamma back to thailand. But who will take back Vinaya, Bhikkhunipātimokkha, etc ?

[Bhikkhu Pesala]

You seem to be very confused. Money has been around since the time of the Buddha. Anāthapindiaka was a very wealthy banker — was he not a capitalist? What about Mendaka and Visākhā? I don't think the decline of Buddhism has anything to do with capitalism or communism.

Whenever and wherever the bhikkhus are overwhelmed by greed, then their practice will degenerate. The very first bhikkhu who was responsible for the Buddha laying down the Vinaya rule regarding money was greedy for meat. Unable to control his greed for meat, he asked his supporter to give him the money that would have been used to buy meat, and went to try to buy some meat himself.

If the country is really poor and without basic freedoms like N Korea, would it be a place for the Buddhadhamma to thrive? If a country is prosperous like Singapore, would it mean that Buddhism couldn't be practised there?

Buddhism does seem to be declining in Asia, but it depends on where you look. Anyway, whatever the truth of the matter, its not something that is within our control. A very wise and devout Buddhist might make a small difference to his or her immediate family and community, but its not going to affect the general trend of an entire country.

Its best not to regard the faults of others, but to regard one's own faults.

Is our own practice of Buddhism declining or improving as the years go by? That is within our control — we have the choice to make more effort to abandon greed and anger, to gain wisdom and knowledge, generosity and kindness.

[David N. Snyder]

I follow the news about Capitalism in Myanmar. I am worry a little bit in buddhism cycle status that may destroy by Capitalism.

Buddhism has thrived in many capitalist countries. Actually, if anything Buddhism has been suppressed or even attacked in communist countries much more than capitalist ones.

They began since Capitalism came to thailand.

When was Thailand communist? Or when was it even remotely socialist?

Our bhikkhu stop to memorize tipitaka and try to learn more in layman's subjects, since democracy had come.

So you propose something other than democracy?

Nowadays we have (fake) theravada bikkhunis who dress underpants

Fake? They are not fake; they follow Dhamma-vinaya. Underpants? What does that mean? I see them wearing bhikkhuni robes.

and be ordained by mahāyāna-saṅgha T-T

Good for them (the bhikkhunis)! May they attain the final goal of the holy life.

If the country is really poor and without basic freedoms like N Korea, would it be a place for the Buddhadhamma to thrive? If a country is prosperous like Singapore, would it mean that Buddhism couldn't be practised there?

Exactly. It is difficult to practice the Buddha-Dhamma if you have to worry about basic necessities of life and worry if you will have enough food for yourself and your family for the day, in countries like North Korea, Cuba, etc.

Money has been around since the time of the Buddha. Anāthapindiaka was a very wealthy banker — was he not a capitalist? What about Mendaka and Visākhā? I don't think the decline of Buddhism has anything to do with capitalism or communism.

[Kamran]

Theravada may benefit from the democratic reforms the way Islam has in Egypt and other countries.

I think Theravada has a popular base in Myanmar which would make its senior monks politically influential in a more democratic system.

[Dmytro]

Hi theY

I follow the news about Capitalism in Myanmar. I am worry a little bit in buddhism cycle status that may destroy by Capitalism.

In thailand, our bhikkhus can't memorize bhikkhunipātimokkha, can't memorize vibhaṅga, and lost our abhidhamma + vinaya study cycle**. They began since Capitalism came to thailand.

Capitalism can be very different. Thailand follows a liberal model with universal suffrage and emphasis on equal rights (without equal responsibilities). This model is easily hijacked by corporate capital which buys media and brainwashes the people from childhood with advertisements, and establishes scientism as a state religion.

Myanmar is evidently following something like a Singapore model of civic consensus. This model is much better protected against the onslaught of plutocracy. Buddhism is thriving in Singapore, and morality is high. So believe in bright future for the Myanmar Buddhism.

IMHO, Thailand will do well to consider the Singapore model. An essential part of it - an overlooking role of the disciplined army - is already in place.

Best wishes, Dmytro

[Mr Man]

Is there universal suffrage in Singapore?

Is the army in Thailand "disciplined"?

Where has " scientism" been established" as a state religion"?

[theY]

Do you know "5 kāmaguṇas" ?

Do you know status--hīna, majjhima, and paṇīta of them?

3rd council happened because many titthiyas came in buddhism to get 5 kāmaguṇas, right?

What is the status of nowadays's 5 kāmaguṇas when compare with buddhakāla's 5 kāmaguṇas, or roman's 5 kāmaguṇas?

5 kāmaguṇas can grow better in in capitalism or kingdom--at same resource (such as thailand and myanmar)?

Vajjī control system is like thailand or myanmar when compare with another countries at that time? Why 2nd council happened in that country?

Why budhism before 2500 b.e. must be dropper?

Why capitalism grown in buddhist country at that time?

Why thailand lost their buddhist learning system at that time (about 2400-2500b.e.)?

Can visākhā, anāthapindika see beyonce from youtube?

Real bhikkhu/bhikhunī, who learned in vinaya, know that they can't use underpants, or not?

Real bhikkhu/bhikhunī, who learned in vinaya, know that they can't be theravāda on nowadays, or not?


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However, capitalism system is the way to access kāmaguṇas, but buddhism is the way to get out off kāmaguṇas, right?

So, I'm not a anti-capitalism.

I'm anti at kāmaguṇas.

So, I will especially careful what system can grow kāmaguṇas up.

"Look backward and careful toward" is what I do.

[David N. Snyder]

Capitalists have kāmaguṇas. Socialists have kāmaguṇas. Communists have kāmaguṇas. The economic system has little to no effect on the minds of the individuals and their cravings. The cravings might be slightly different, but they are there in all but the highest noble states.

Can visākhā, anāthapindika see Beyonce from youtube?

If they were alive today I am sure they could watch her, but probably wouldn't be interested.

Real bhikkhu/bhikhunī, who learned in vinaya, know that they can't use underpants, or not?

Why this fixation on underwear? How do you know what they are wearing under their robes? How do you know what the monks are wearing under their robes?

This seems to me another example of fundamentalism run amok. So many problems in the world today from unemployment, hunger, etc. and then someone is concerned with what female monastics are wearing under their robes.

[Dmytro]

Hi theY,

Can visākhā, anāthapindika see beyonce from youtube?


However, capitalism system is the way to access kāmaguṇas, but buddhism is the way to get out off kāmaguṇas, right?

What we have now is not a classical 'capitalism'. Capital has merged with technical means of psychological persuasion, used by the media, - and those capitalists who have bought these technical means, largely control the values, and hence the 'elections'.

I have seen it happening step by step here in Ukraine. There were several years of real democracy, until the corporate capital settled in and eroded the values by massive advertisements, bought the media and started to control the politics.

Never before the kāmaguṇas were at a distance of a click, readily offered through the technical means controlled by the corporate capital.
Never before the means of mass psychological persuasion were so powerful and elaborate.
Never before traditional religions were so downplayed by scientism as a new religion, with technology as a new savior.

Hopefully someone will describe this system in detail and give it a better name.

So, I will especially careful what system can grow kāmaguṇas up.

"Look backward and careful toward" is what I do.

I hope that the people in Thailand, and Asia in general, will carefully learn from the history of the West, and make better choices.
I see it already happening.

[daverupa]

Never before the kāmaguṇas were at a distance of a click, readily offered through the technical means controlled by the corporate capital.
Never before the means of mass psychological persuasion were so powerful and elaborate.
Never before traditional religions were so downplayed by scientism as a new religion, with technology as a new savior.

It sounds like a Brave New World, indeed...

[theY]

Hi by Dmytro, David N. Snyder, and all,

Can visākhā, anāthapindika see Beyonce from youtube?

If they were alive today I am sure they could watch her, but probably wouldn't be interested.

Capitalism make a better and better kāmaguṇas to this world. In the past, kāmaguṇas were lower quality more than nowadays kāmaguṇas. Also, harder to get kāmaguṇas, too. Didn't have telephone, internet, or another facilities.

Commentary said "When rājā is bad,people, plants, courtiers, devatās will bad, too". So, when leader addict kāmaguna, subordinate will addict too.

What was commentary said is one of examples that shown about the tendency that control by the leader.

And nowadays leader is all people around the world, democracy.

Democracy(Capitalism) is the way that everybody can be equal.

In tipitaka and commentary, we can see the verse about the age range of people at each period.

Age of human is upon their moral. More moral more age (More than 1 million years). Less moral less age (least at 10 years).

Commentary said "We are at a downside of curve". And if we notice in the commentary text, we will see that we are near the end of downside curve.

What is the downside curve of age range?

People will lose their moral and lose their age. Most people will find-out/protect/preserve the occupation to access kāmaguṇa (example will be appear in topic about capitalism economy or democracy, or you can see more at the target of scientist, and myanmar changing).

What's up?

Everybody equalization = Downside unmoral/less-moral people will be leader and rightfully possess this world.


So, in the past, if rājā believe in kamma and love dhamma, buddhism grown up. Tendency curve upon each countries rājā's moral.

Risk decentralized.

Nowadays, tendency curve upon downside unmoral/less-moral people.

Taṇhā will be one stand dictator!

Although, I ask for the way that myanmar will live with this environment, not the way to change it, because we can't.

We at the downside curve. So we can't grow more in anyway. Hurry to grow is hurry to die--for theravāda, except another nikāya.

We should hide ourselves if we can't fight like this sutta:

[40] "yasmiṃ, bhikkhave, samaye corā balavanto honti, rājāno tasmiṃ samaye dubbalāhontiฯ tasmiṃ, bhikkhave, samaye rañño na phāsu hoti atiyātuṃ vā niyyātuṃ vā paccantime vā janapade anusaññātuṃฯ brāhmaṇagahapatikānampi tasmiṃ samaye na phāsu hoti atiyātuṃ vā niyyātuṃ vā bāhirāni vā kammantāni paṭivekkhituṃฯ evamevaṃ kho, bhikkhave,yasmiṃ samaye pāpabhikkhū balavanto honti, pesalā bhikkhū tasmiṃ samaye dubbalāhontiฯ tasmiṃ, bhikkhave, samaye pesalā bhikkhū tuṇhībhūtā tuṇhībhūtāva saṅghamajjhesaṅkasāyanti paccantime vā janapade acchanti ฯ tayidaṃ, bhikkhave, hoti bahujanāhitāya bahujanāsukhāya,bahuno janassa anatthāya ahitāya dukkhāya devamanussānaṃฯ--myanmar,suttantapiṭakaṃ,aṅguttaranikāyo,dukanipātapāḷi no. 40

P.S. That tendency curve made capitalism seem to be democracy, free-market economy, and free-enterprise system, because most of us are less-moral/selfish/kāmaguṇa addict. Everybody can indulge our taṇhā unlimited to get everything we wanted (sell) by supporting another taṇhā (buy). so, capitalist == kāmaguṇist, capitalism == kāmaguṇism.

And, so, in vinaya, the buddha forbid bhikkhu to buy, to sell and to get money.

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Capitalists have kāmaguṇas. Socialists have kāmaguṇas. Communists have kāmaguṇas. The economic system has little to no effect on the minds of the individuals and their cravings. The cravings might be slightly different, but they are there in all but the highest noble states.

Do you understand below question?

Do you know status--hīna, majjhima, and paṇīta of them?

I wrote about better kāmaguṇa from capitalism, wrong?

Addition:
Why there are harder to bhāvanā in heaven than in our world?
Why we, include thai bhikkhu, can't memorize all tipitaka like commentary-teacher, myanmar bhikkhus?
Why thai bhikkhus can't memorize tipitaka like they had did in the past, but why myanmar bhikkhu still going on to memorize tipitaka?
Why thai bhikkhu who try to memorize tipitaka and stick in vinaya go to live myanmar, although he also has his work in thailand?

Real bhikkhu/bhikhunī, who learned in vinaya, know that they can't use underpants, or not?

Why this fixation on underwear? How do you know what they are wearing under their robes? How do you know what the monks are wearing under their robes?

This seems to me another example of fundamentalism run amok. So many problems in the world today from unemployment, hunger, etc. and then someone is concerned with what female monastics are wearing under their robes.

My thai monk teacher has taught vinaya to thai (fake) bhikkhuni. They said that themselves, because in vinaya hve that topic--fobid gihi-dress (that many bikkhu and bikkhuni wonder about underwear).

I not fix at underwear, I fix at vinaya that distort by the buddhist capitalists (worm in the lion king), example is who man who claim themselves "We are theravāda bikkhuni", but they don't know even if dressing law that is about what thing they wearing everyday.

Is that good if you are a man who dress the skirt everyday? Is it proper?

Should anybody break the law everyday?

Do you know the example?

You didn't find out my question "Do you know status--hīna, majjhima, and paṇīta of them?", but you want to know " do you know what they are wearing under their robes? How do you know what the monks are wearing under their robes?".

Why?

Why another didn't interest that title?

I'm a fundamentalism of tipitaka(mettā with kammassakatā), and you are fundamentalism of human rights(mettā, only), right?

I'm unmoral, and you are moral, right?

Please, go on vinaya. Don't be serious about the example. I know you can understand my capital topic like another, if you try more.

[James the Giant]

My thai monk teacher has taught vinaya to thai (fake) bhikkhuni.

Interesting, you should start a topic about these "thai (fake) bhikkhuni".
I have not heard of them.

[David N. Snyder]

Do you know status--hīna, majjhima, and paṇīta of them?

Are you referring to the status of bhikkhunis? If so, then my response is paṇīta.

I wrote about better kāmaguṇa from capitalism, wrong?

Yes, wrong. People following other economic philosophies have kāmaguṇas too and they also have thirst for power, control and other cravings.

I'm a fundamentalism of tipitaka, and you are fundamentalism of human rights, right?

Why would anyone not support human rights? Calling me a fundamentalist of human rights is probably meant to be derogatory, but I'll take it as a compliment.

[David N. Snyder]

What we have now is not a classical 'capitalism'. Capital has merged with technical means of psychological persuasion, used by the media, - and those capitalists who have bought these technical means, largely control the values, and hence the 'elections'.
I have seen it happening step by step here in Ukraine. There were several years of real democracy, until the corporate capital settled in and eroded the values by massive advertisements, bought the media and started to control the politics.
Hopefully someone will describe this system in detail and give it a better name.

I agree; what we have in the U.S. and developing in other countries is not the classical-liberal-capitalism of Adam Smith, where there is true free trade and free markets, but rather a corrupted mix of state and corporations.

The nearest term we have so far is Corporatism or neo-Corporatism or corporate nationalism. The government becomes involved with numerous corporate interests and often with corruption, boosts certain industries at the expense of others. For example, the no-bid contracts given to Haliburton by former pres. and vice-pres. Bush and Cheney and other efforts to grow the military-industrial-complex with no regard for fiscal responsibility or the free market.

[Dmytro]

The nearest term we have so far is Corporatism or neo-Corporatism or corporate nationalism.

Thank you, David. Neo-feudalism also fits very well.

[Mr Man]

So the US is a Neo-feudalist country?

[Dmytro]

So the US is a Neo-feudalist country?

Identification "is" between such a complex entity as US and one of the descriptors of policies would be an oversimplification, much like the identification of modern China as "socialist" or "communist".

Words can provide inroads for inquiry - while labels can prevent inquiry from happening.

If you would like to ask my opinion about the US, I would say that the early form of US democracy, with selective suffrage, was an amazing system, with balanced rights and responsibilities. Now the responsibility is pretty much a intracorporate (or 'feudal') thing.
Perhaps one of the possible future solutions is already maturing in the form of 'reputation systems' on the popular websites.
One day the elements of "reputation society" will be widely used in management, and then in state policies, - US already has an established system of credit ratings, etc.
Maybe this would solve the current crisis of lack of responsibility in modern Western capitalism.

[theY]

Hi David N. Snyder,

Do you know status--hīna, majjhima, and paṇīta of them?

Are you referring to the status of bhikkhunis? If so, then my response is paṇīta.

See:

Do you know "5 kāmaguṇas" ?

Do you know status--hīna, majjhima, and paṇīta of them?

Also,

Capitalism make a better and better kāmaguṇas to this world. In the past, kāmaguṇas were lower quality more than nowadays kāmaguṇas. Also, harder to get kāmaguṇas, too. Didn't have telephone, internet, or another facilities.

Then, please, cross "bhikkhunī" topic, and "the same topic every religion" topic to "the difference of them" also especially look at their effect to kāmaguṇas' addition.

--------------------------------------------------------------

I wrote about better kāmaguṇa from capitalism, wrong?

Yes, wrong. People following other economic philosophies have kāmaguṇas too and they also have thirst for power, control and other cravings.

Please cross this topic, I knew and everyone knew that before I open this topic as new. Look on panīta of kāmaguṇas effected by capitalism.

I still talk about it from begin through to this reply.
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I'm a fundamentalism of tipitaka, and you are fundamentalism of human rights, right?

Why would anyone not support human rights? Calling me a fundamentalist of human rights is probably meant to be derogatory, but I'll take it as a compliment.

Is "bikkhunī comming again" "human rights"?
Is "bikkhunī comming again" "vinaya rights"?

Is "gay freedom" "human rights"?
Is "gay freedom" "aggaññasutta rights"?

Is "capitalism" "human rights"?
Is "bikkhunī comming again" and "gay freedom" "powerful project", more than the past, because of "capitalism (cooperative taṇhā system)"?
Why bhodhisata acted like that sometime and to somebody, didn't act sometime and didn't act to somebody?
What was his limit?
What are our limit?
Do we know "limit"?
Do we know "rule"?
Do we know "buddhist rule"?
Do we know "buddhist dhamma rule"?
Do we know "buddhist vinaya rule"?
Do we know "buddhist sutta rule"?
Do we know "buddhist abhidhamma rule"?
Do we know "right request over the rule"?
Is "right" "complete right", or just "our right"?
What is the difference of:
"Taṇhā right, human right in our meaning--nowadays meaning?"
and
"Taṇhā right, human right in buddhist meaning?"


Analysis, analysis, and analysis, then get ñātapariññā/abhiññatañāṇa.
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P.S., I can answer all in thai. However, I am not confident at my english skill for my questions.

---My Note---
I derogatory you, however I didn't want to discredit/abuse you. My english is terrible, and maybe unmoral. I estimated you knew my feeling. However, I emphasis again for my happy(destroy my after kukucca).

I love to talk in this forum, even if I can't quote much translated tipitaka and commentary, because you most can analysis tipitaka and control your feeling more than thai buddhist. Talking can have angry, but we should control it and let the discussion to the end.
---End Note---