Do enlightened people experience kamma vipaka

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BlueLotus
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Do enlightened people experience kamma vipaka

Postby BlueLotus » Thu Feb 28, 2013 11:56 am

Dear forum,

Do enlightened people experience kamma vipaka (fruits of good and bad kamma)? If not, where did the Buddha say so?

Thank you :anjali:

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daverupa
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Re: Do enlightened people experience kamma vipaka

Postby daverupa » Thu Feb 28, 2013 12:09 pm

I forget the name, but one arahant was allegedly murdered due to kammavipaka.

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BlueLotus
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Re: Do enlightened people experience kamma vipaka

Postby BlueLotus » Thu Feb 28, 2013 12:39 pm


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BlueLotus
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Re: Do enlightened people experience kamma vipaka

Postby BlueLotus » Thu Feb 28, 2013 12:41 pm

The confusing part is that I remember reading somewhere that when nibbana is realized he produces no kamma (good or bad) and his past kamma gets cancelled (nivarana). Maybe I am mistaken.

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daverupa
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Re: Do enlightened people experience kamma vipaka

Postby daverupa » Thu Feb 28, 2013 12:50 pm


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BlueLotus
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Re: Do enlightened people experience kamma vipaka

Postby BlueLotus » Thu Feb 28, 2013 12:51 pm

wow :jawdrop:

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BlueLotus
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Re: Do enlightened people experience kamma vipaka

Postby BlueLotus » Thu Feb 28, 2013 12:52 pm

Hi Devarupan,

Did the Buddha experience fruits of bad past kamma according to suttas?

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daverupa
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Re: Do enlightened people experience kamma vipaka

Postby daverupa » Thu Feb 28, 2013 12:57 pm


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BlueLotus
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Re: Do enlightened people experience kamma vipaka

Postby BlueLotus » Thu Feb 28, 2013 1:18 pm


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daverupa
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Re: Do enlightened people experience kamma vipaka

Postby daverupa » Thu Feb 28, 2013 2:14 pm


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Bhikkhu Pesala
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Re: Do enlightened people experience kamma vipaka

Postby Bhikkhu Pesala » Thu Feb 28, 2013 5:38 pm

When past evil Kamma gives its present evil results, the perpetrators (Devadatta or the hired thugs who killed Moggallāna at the behest of the heretics) are not doing it because of the past evil kamma of the victim, otherwise they would be free from any consequences of their own actions. They are driven by their own evil kamma to do evil deeds. They, in turn, were captured and executed by the king, as were the heretics who hired them. All experienced the vipāka of their evil deeds and were reborn in hell after death.

Thugs who are willing to kill anyone for a fee have a long habit of doing such evil deeds. Their will is neither completely free nor completely compelled, but conditioned by previous causes.

All of the royal archers who were sent by Ajātassattu to kill the Buddha due to the urging of Devadatta, did not carry out their initial intent. They were converted by the Buddha's great compassion and skilful means, and all became monks, so that plot came to naught. Likewise, the drunken elephant Nāḷagiri was tamed by the Buddha's mettā.

The Buddha experienced several negative results due to past kamma bearing fruit. Due to insulting the Buddha Kassapa as a "Bald headed recluse," he had to endure six years of extreme asceticism, whereas not all previous Buddhas had to do the same.

The law of kamma is not fatalism. There are light evil kammas (ahosi) that expire and never give results. There are medium kammas that may be diverted by wholesome deeds done later, there are heavy kammas the results of which can be mitigated, and there are heavy kammas that must give their results.

The idea of free-will implies the presence of a self or soul who is free to decide whether to act or not. In fact, our decisions are conditioned by many factors. Psychological research has shown that merely asking someone to hold a warm drink in their hand instead of a cold drink, can make them feel more positive about a person they talk too, influencing their decision whether they would give that person a job or not.
• • • • (Upasampadā: 24th June, 1979)

Awakening
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Re: Do enlightened people experience kamma vipaka

Postby Awakening » Wed Mar 06, 2013 4:16 am

Yes, otherwise the nama-rupa of the enlightened being would "disappear" upon enlightenment. Instead, nama-rupa continues to unfold according to karmic conditioning.

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retrofuturist
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Re: Do enlightened people experience kamma vipaka

Postby retrofuturist » Wed Mar 06, 2013 5:19 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

rohana
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Re: Do enlightened people experience kamma vipaka

Postby rohana » Wed Mar 06, 2013 8:18 pm

"Delighting in existence, O monks, are gods and men; they are attached to existence, they revel in existence. When the Dhamma for the cessation of existence is being preached to them, their minds do not leap towards it, do not get pleased with it, do not get settled in it, do not find confidence in it. That is how, monks, some lag behind."
- It. p 43

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acinteyyo
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Re: Do enlightened people experience kamma vipaka

Postby acinteyyo » Wed Mar 06, 2013 10:37 pm

Thag 1.20. Ajita - I do not fear death; nor do I long for life. I’ll lay down this body, aware and mindful.

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kirk5a
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Re: Do enlightened people experience kamma vipaka

Postby kirk5a » Thu Mar 07, 2013 4:01 pm

Let's consider an example, see if you can spot the flaw in the logic:

Dependent upon wood, air, and heat, a log is on fire. If the fire ceases, the cessation of the aforementioned things should have taken place.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

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acinteyyo
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Re: Do enlightened people experience kamma vipaka

Postby acinteyyo » Thu Mar 07, 2013 4:24 pm

Thag 1.20. Ajita - I do not fear death; nor do I long for life. I’ll lay down this body, aware and mindful.

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kirk5a
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Re: Do enlightened people experience kamma vipaka

Postby kirk5a » Fri Mar 08, 2013 3:12 am

MN140 makes it quite clear that the final cessation of "old kamma" does not occur until the death of an arahant.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

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retrofuturist
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Re: Do enlightened people experience kamma vipaka

Postby retrofuturist » Fri Mar 08, 2013 3:17 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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kirk5a
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Re: Do enlightened people experience kamma vipaka

Postby kirk5a » Fri Mar 08, 2013 3:20 am

"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230


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