Has Tiger Woods attain Jhana?

Theravāda in the 21st century - modern applications of ancient wisdom
SarathW
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Has Tiger Woods attain Jhana?

Postby SarathW » Fri Mar 01, 2013 12:37 am

I posted the same question, in another Buddhist forum about two years ago without knowing that Tiger Woods was a Buddhist and he was meditating as a very young child. If I am not wrong, I think that he played 18 hole golf at par at the age of five.
I think that most of prominent players win in Olympics, tennis (mainly Abrahamic Religions) must have attain some form of Jhana (keeping aside drug abuse). Even cricket players such as Muralitharan (Hindu religion), Shane Warn may come under this category.
Unfortunately most of these people did not support their attainment with following Dharma. In his public apology to his family Tiger Woods stated that fall of his fame is due to failing to follow the Five Precepts.
What are your thoughts?

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marc108
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Re: Has Tiger Woods attain Jhana?

Postby marc108 » Fri Mar 01, 2013 2:03 am

Maybe if they have a dedicate sitting practice, but I would say it would be impossible to attain jhana with that level f activity. You can attain a great deal of Samadhi and still be a ways ff from Jhana... For sure elite athletes have developed some above average level of concentration though... Usually it's called 'the zone'.
"It's easy for us to connect with what's wrong with us... and not so easy to feel into, or to allow us, to connect with what's right and what's good in us."

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Re: Has Tiger Woods attain Jhana?

Postby SarathW » Fri Mar 01, 2013 2:21 am

Hi Marc
Thanks. I do sitting meditation too. But is it so crucial? How about walking meditation? I never heard about the zone. Can you give some links so I can learn bit more about it?

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Re: Has Tiger Woods attain Jhana?

Postby SDC » Fri Mar 01, 2013 2:53 am

SarathW wrote:What are your thoughts?


That 'concentration' is a poor and misleading rendering of samādhi.

I do not think Tiger has had the time to develop what is needed to attain the jhānas.

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Re: Has Tiger Woods attain Jhana?

Postby SarathW » Fri Mar 01, 2013 3:02 am

Thanks all,
I found some info about “flow” in the following link.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flow_(psychology)

Flow has been experienced throughout history and across cultures. The teachings of Buddhism and Taoism speak of a state of mind known as the "action of inaction" or "doing without doing" that greatly resembles the idea of flow. Also, Hindu texts on Advaita philosophy such as Ashtavakra Gita and the Yoga of Knowledge such as Bhagavad-Gita refer to a similar state.

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Re: Has Tiger Woods attain Jhana?

Postby SarathW » Fri Mar 01, 2013 3:07 am

SDC wrote:
SarathW wrote:What are your thoughts?


That 'concentration' is a poor and misleading rendering of samādhi.

I do not think Tiger has had the time to develop what is needed to attain the jhānas.


Hi SDC
I think Jhana and samadhi are two diffrent things. I do not intend to start the old debate again. :)

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Re: Has Tiger Woods attain Jhana?

Postby SDC » Fri Mar 01, 2013 3:11 am

Neither do I. :smile:

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Re: Has Tiger Woods attain Jhana?

Postby marc108 » Fri Mar 01, 2013 4:31 am

SarathW wrote:Hi Marc
Thanks. I do sitting meditation too. But is it so crucial? How about walking meditation? I never heard about the zone. Can you give some links so I can learn bit more about it?


I guess it depends the nature of the Jhana. I haven't done much walking meditation, so i cant say from experience. the only teacher I've heard say Jhana was possible while walking was Bhante Vimalaramsi, who teaches a very light type of Jhana.

I dont have any info about 'the zone'. It's a term athletes use for when they have strong concentration while playing. I dont think its anything close to Jhana though.
"It's easy for us to connect with what's wrong with us... and not so easy to feel into, or to allow us, to connect with what's right and what's good in us."

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Re: Has Tiger Woods attain Jhana?

Postby polarbuddha101 » Fri Mar 01, 2013 6:12 am

Being in the zone is when one is able to accomplish the task at hand seemingly effortlessly and with great precision although this definition doesn't describe the felt experience of being in the zone that well if suffices for now I suppose. I would say that being in the zone while meditating is a prerequisite for the arising of jhana.
"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."

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Re: Has Tiger Woods attain Jhana?

Postby rohana » Fri Mar 01, 2013 7:13 am

Concentration reduces the five hindrances, including kāmacchanda(sense desires), so, I'm pretty sure we can cross out Tiger Woods among jhāna attainers. Pretty much anyone who can attain jhāna would be, to some degree, living a hermit-like lifestyle (whether a monastic or not). In many retreats the 8 precepts are followed, for example.

Even practicing samatha bhāvanā for a small period will reduce sensual desires, not to mention the degree to which it needs to be practiced for jhāna ('Sutta-style' or 'Visuddhimagga-style').
"Delighting in existence, O monks, are gods and men; they are attached to existence, they revel in existence. When the Dhamma for the cessation of existence is being preached to them, their minds do not leap towards it, do not get pleased with it, do not get settled in it, do not find confidence in it. That is how, monks, some lag behind."
- It. p 43

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Re: Has Tiger Woods attain Jhana?

Postby SarathW » Thu Mar 14, 2013 8:25 am

I am reading a book titled The Art of Living by S.N.Genka. (Very good book to read)
He says in Page 76:

Right concentration
In the daily actions of ordinary life, concentration is also required, but it is not necessarily the same as right concentration. A person may be concentration on satisfying a sensual desire or forestalling a fear. A cat waits with all its attention focuses on a mouse hole, ready to pounce as soon as a mouse appears. .. A child in bed at night stares fearfully at the darkest corner of the room, imagining monsters hidden in the shadows. None of these is right concentration that can be used for liberation.
Samadhi must have as its focus an object that is free from all craving, all aversion, and all illusion.

----------------
(he is talking about the breath meditation. It appears to me that sports people have wrong concentration as it has the craving, fear and illusion as the base)

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Re: Has Tiger Woods attain Jhana?

Postby Samma » Sat Mar 16, 2013 1:51 am

Why don't you ask Tiger Woods?
They certainly experience flow, being in the zone.
But how does that relate to samadhi and jhana?
Ask yourself, does sports activity clearly relate to the typical presentation of the 1st jhana as "rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal". I don't think so. How is sports activity withdraw? See the quotes bellow, if you are not having happiness/pleasure/bliss/joy (sukkha) that rules out the first 3jhana. But, there is certainly something going on with flavors of absorption, altered sense of consciousness, concentration.

Take some passages from Csikszentmihalyi, Finding Flow:
1)"Flow tends to occur when a person faces a clear set of goals that require appropriate responses"
2)"challenges and skills are in balance, attention becomes ordered and fully invested. ... There is no space in consciousness for distracting thoughts, irrelevant feelings. Self-consciousness disappears, yet one feels stronger ... sense of time is distorted"
3)"in flow, we are not happy, because to experience happiness we must focus on our inner states, and that would take away attention from the task at hand"

I agree that flow is pointing to a state of mind known as the "action of inaction" or "doing without doing". But what is that state of mind in Buddhism? (assuming there is a parallel)

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Re: Has Tiger Woods attain Jhana?

Postby convivium » Tue Mar 19, 2013 6:20 am

tiger woods was, by extension of his mother i think, a student of thanissaro. i was at wat metta when he cheated on his wife, and thanissaro was doing a facepalm when he heard fox said it wouldn't have happened if he had been christian.
Just keep breathing in and out like this. Don't be interested in anything else. It doesn't matter even if someone is standing on their head with their ass in the air. Don't pay it any attention. Just stay with the in-breath and the out-breath. Concentrate your awareness on the breath. Just keep doing it. http://www.ajahnchah.org/book/Just_Do_It_1_2.php

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Re: Has Tiger Woods attain Jhana?

Postby SarathW » Thu Jul 11, 2013 4:59 am

Ven. Thanissaro says:

"and §152 makes the point that jhāna can be considered right concentration only if it is devoid of unskillful qualities such as the hindrances.
Absorption in sensual passion, for instance, even though it may be very single-minded, does not count as part of the path.

Thus the definition for the first level of jhāna specifies that it counts as a path factor only when the mind is secluded from sensuality and unskillful mental qualities."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... part3.html

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Re: Has Tiger Woods attain Jhana?

Postby SarathW » Fri Feb 21, 2014 3:40 am

Relevant passage:

Also with seeing consciousness there is Ekaggatā.
Generally speaking, Ekaggatā is also one of the Jhānaṅgas.
But when it accompanies seeing consciousness, it is not called
Jhānaṅga. It has no status of Jhāna. Although it is Ekaggatā,
one-pointedness, it is very, very weak. We have to understand
that although these Cetasikas are called Jhānaṅgas, when they
arise with these Cittas, they are not considered Jhānaṅgas.
Although the Cetasikas which are ordinarily Jhānaṅga factors
are found in the Dvipañcaviññāṇa Cittas, they are not
reckoned as Jhāna factors here. With the fivefold senseconsciousness
there arise Ekaggatā and Vedanā. Both
Ekaggatā and Vedanā are not called Jhānaṅga when they
accompany fivefold sense-consciousness.

Page 45:

http://buddhispano.net/sites/default/fi ... es-III.pdf

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Re: Has Tiger Woods attain Jhana?

Postby appicchato » Fri Feb 21, 2014 6:47 am

He's about as Buddhist as a statue of the Virgin Mary...and no way does he even know the meaning of the word jhana...

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Re: Has Tiger Woods attain Jhana?

Postby Mkoll » Fri Feb 21, 2014 6:50 am

appicchato wrote:He's about as Buddhist as a statue of the Virgin Mary...and no way does he even know the meaning of the word jhana...


:clap:

Well said Venerable Sir!
Peace,
James

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Re: Has Tiger Woods attain Jhana?

Postby chownah » Fri Feb 21, 2014 9:52 am

appicchato wrote:He's about as Buddhist as a statue of the Virgin Mary...and no way does he even know the meaning of the word jhana...

appicchato,
What percentage of Buddhists in Thailand know the meaning of the word jhana? I think there must be a lot of Virgin Mary statue Buddhists in Thailand.
chownah

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Re: Has Tiger Woods attain Jhana?

Postby seeker242 » Fri Feb 21, 2014 10:43 am

SarathW wrote:I posted the same question, in another Buddhist forum about two years ago without knowing that Tiger Woods was a Buddhist and he was meditating as a very young child. If I am not wrong, I think that he played 18 hole golf at par at the age of five.
I think that most of prominent players win in Olympics, tennis (mainly Abrahamic Religions) must have attain some form of Jhana (keeping aside drug abuse). Even cricket players such as Muralitharan (Hindu religion), Shane Warn may come under this category.
Unfortunately most of these people did not support their attainment with following Dharma. In his public apology to his family Tiger Woods stated that fall of his fame is due to failing to follow the Five Precepts.
What are your thoughts?


I don't think so. He's just good at playing golf. :)

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Re: Has Tiger Woods attain Jhana?

Postby Anagarika » Fri Feb 21, 2014 12:41 pm

My thought would be that while he has learned through sports psychologists to focus his mind on ball striking (getting in the zone), this is of course not the same as jhana.

Tiger still demonstrates elements of self=centeredness, anger, and inappropriate behavior on the golf course. Some feel he cheats a bit, which is shocking for someone at his level. Were he a jhana practitioner, he might have the equanimity and insights necessary to eliminate these defilements from his conduct. Some years ago, were he a jhana practitioner, his uncontrolled sex drive (that lead to the loss of his family and many supporters) would have been displaced by the sense rewards of jhana.

I'm guessing it's Fred Couples that is a jhana master (tongue in cheek). Perfect rhythmic swing, easy disposition, and universally well liked.


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