Teachers teaching Jhana as whole-body awareness?

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
Goob
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Teachers teaching Jhana as whole-body awareness?

Post by Goob »

Yes, the title says it all I guess. We all know about the differences of interpretation among teachers regarding how the different steps in the Anapanasati sutta (and others) should be interpreted and how they influence their conception of Jhana. For purely intellectual reasons I'm interested in what teachers you are aware of (Sri Lankan, Western, Thai, Burmese and otherwise) who treats the "awareness of the whole body"-step as an all-encompassing, global awareness of the physical body. I know Ajahn Thanissaro (following Ajahns Lee & Fuang) teaches this as opposed to, say, Ajahn Brahm's intensely narrowly focused nimitta-Jhana (no critique intended).

Thanks, and be well.
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marc108
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Re: Teachers teaching Jhana as whole-body awareness?

Post by marc108 »

According to the wiki article on mn118: Bhikkhu Bodhi, Ajahn Buddhadasa, Goenka, Larry Rosenberg, and Thich Naht Hanh.

I think saying Ajahn Geoff is talking about the flesh body is a bit misleading, If I'm understanding correctly he is referring to the breath as an energetic body experienced within the physical body. Bhante G and Ajahn Sucitto also teach this way. Ajahn Sucittos meditation manual has a very clear and lucid description of this that is worth reading if you're into practicing this way.
"It's easy for us to connect with what's wrong with us... and not so easy to feel into, or to allow us, to connect with what's right and what's good in us."
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Polar Bear
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Re: Teachers teaching Jhana as whole-body awareness?

Post by Polar Bear »

I would maybe throw Richard Shankman in that lot as well since he states that he thinks the suttas are talking about whole body awareness in jhana.

@ Mark: I would say that Thanissaro teaches both the energy body and the physical body awareness. One uses the breath and energy in order to sense the whole physical body while breathing. So I wouldn't say it's misleading to say Thanissaro teaches awareness of the flesh body, just that it's not the whole picture.
"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."
Goob
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Re: Teachers teaching Jhana as whole-body awareness?

Post by Goob »

Thanks Marc and Polarbuddha! I will look into the teachers you mention, interesting stuff. I just read Ajahn Thanissaro's new book on breath meditation and he does make it clear that he's not exactly talking about the physical body but the subtle energies found within, but you know, it's kinda the same in my book. I wasn't aware that Ven. Gunaratana taught this way. Has he changed his opinion on this lately or did I just never read his stuff carefully enought maybe?
danieLion
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Re: Teachers teaching Jhana as whole-body awareness?

Post by danieLion »

richard_rca wrote:For purely intellectual reasons I'm interested in what teachers you are aware of (Sri Lankan, Western, Thai, Burmese and otherwise) who treats the "awareness of the whole body"-step as an all-encompassing, global awareness of the physical body.
The Buddha.

What do you mean by "purely intellectual reasons"?
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marc108
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Re: Teachers teaching Jhana as whole-body awareness?

Post by marc108 »

richard_rca wrote: I wasn't aware that Ven. Gunaratana taught this way. Has he changed his opinion on this lately or did I just never read his stuff carefully enought maybe?
he doesn't really elaborate on it in his 'plain English' books. in the interview section of Richard Shankman's book Samadhi, Bhante G talks about the breath body being a separate body.
"It's easy for us to connect with what's wrong with us... and not so easy to feel into, or to allow us, to connect with what's right and what's good in us."
Sylvester
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Re: Teachers teaching Jhana as whole-body awareness?

Post by Sylvester »

richard_rca wrote:Thanks Marc and Polarbuddha! I will look into the teachers you mention, interesting stuff. I just read Ajahn Thanissaro's new book on breath meditation and he does make it clear that he's not exactly talking about the physical body but the subtle energies found within, but you know, it's kinda the same in my book. I wasn't aware that Ven. Gunaratana taught this way. Has he changed his opinion on this lately or did I just never read his stuff carefully enought maybe?

Hi Richard

Might you be the Richard Shankman much cited in here for the book "The Experience of Samadhi"?
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Polar Bear
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Re: Teachers teaching Jhana as whole-body awareness?

Post by Polar Bear »

Sylvester wrote:
richard_rca wrote:Thanks Marc and Polarbuddha! I will look into the teachers you mention, interesting stuff. I just read Ajahn Thanissaro's new book on breath meditation and he does make it clear that he's not exactly talking about the physical body but the subtle energies found within, but you know, it's kinda the same in my book. I wasn't aware that Ven. Gunaratana taught this way. Has he changed his opinion on this lately or did I just never read his stuff carefully enought maybe?

Hi Richard

Might you be the Richard Shankman much cited in here for the book "The Experience of Samadhi"?
I believe he is speaking idiomatically but that would be cool if it was Shankman.
"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."
Goob
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Re: Teachers teaching Jhana as whole-body awareness?

Post by Goob »

Sylvester: Haha, no, I'm definately not him! I just got his book though, seems promising. I was speaking idiomatically. I only meant that even if Ven. Thanissaro speaks of the energy body it's still a whole body awareness and I don't think they differ that much.

DanielLion: I'm not sure what I meant by that, maybe as a implied disclaimer to prevent a debate over the correct meaning from happening. Does it matter?
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marc108
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Re: Teachers teaching Jhana as whole-body awareness?

Post by marc108 »

richard_rca wrote: Ven. Thanissaro speaks of the energy body it's still a whole body awareness and I don't think they differ that much.

i agree here. these 2 only seem completely different when reading a book... with practice and in experience the line really blurs.

http://forestsanghapublications.org/vie ... 12&ref=vec" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The material aspects of the breathing – the sensation of the air and the movement of the diaphragm – will tend to fade out, leaving just a bright somatic energy
"It's easy for us to connect with what's wrong with us... and not so easy to feel into, or to allow us, to connect with what's right and what's good in us."
danieLion
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Re: Teachers teaching Jhana as whole-body awareness?

Post by danieLion »

richard_rca wrote:DanielLion: I'm not sure what I meant by that, maybe as a implied disclaimer to prevent a debate over the correct meaning from happening. Does it matter?
Probably not.
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marc108
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Re: Teachers teaching Jhana as whole-body awareness?

Post by marc108 »

I was listening to Joseph Goldstiens 'Abiding in Mindfulness' CD on Mindfulness of the Body, and he is quoting Ajahn Sucitto heavily and talking about Samadhi as embodied awareness.

I've also heard Richard Shankman talk about bringing the nimitta (if it arises) into the body rather than merging the mind into the nimitta.
"It's easy for us to connect with what's wrong with us... and not so easy to feel into, or to allow us, to connect with what's right and what's good in us."
Samma
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Re: Teachers teaching Jhana as whole-body awareness?

Post by Samma »

Ajahn Pasanno, abbot of Abhayagiri, CA:
http://www.abhayagiri.org/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.dhammaweb.net/dhammadb/autho ... o,%20Ajahn" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.buddhanet.net/budsas/ebud/ebmed066.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
This means really taking the time on each in-breath and each out-breath to experience the body sitting and breathing; clearly, from the beginning of the in-breath to the end of the in-breath, from the beginning of the out-breath to the end of the out-breath – really experiencing what the body is feeling. We do not have to change it, we’re not having to try to do anything special but just experiencing the body, experiencing the actual posture and the feeling of the breath as it comes into the body. What sort of tension is there? How relaxed is it? How do we experience the body? Some people tend to be so up in their heads, thinking all the time – on and on and on – that they don’t experience their bodies. They can sit for a whole meditation period, and just be totally up in their heads and feel nothing below their neck; there’s nothing there, just this void. That’s a lack of mindfulness. So it’s important to really settle mindfully into one in-breath, one out-breath.
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convivium
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Re: Teachers teaching Jhana as whole-body awareness?

Post by convivium »

these teachers think it's problematic to stay in one spot (e.g. webu sayadaw).
i'm not saying that i disagree in a certain sense. but i haven't had much success with their methods (e.g. ajahn lee method 2) coming from the goenka tradition. right now staying in one spot is the only thing that i can handle with my attention span (while keeping silent for long enough)...
Just keep breathing in and out like this. Don't be interested in anything else. It doesn't matter even if someone is standing on their head with their ass in the air. Don't pay it any attention. Just stay with the in-breath and the out-breath. Concentrate your awareness on the breath. Just keep doing it. http://www.ajahnchah.org/book/Just_Do_It_1_2.php
Goob
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Re: Teachers teaching Jhana as whole-body awareness?

Post by Goob »

Well, I feel that the Goenka tradition's emphasis on whole-body vedana sensations - after the anapana-sati period in the retreats - could be correlated with the methods of focusing on the whole body breathing taught by others, but that they are explained (and understood) in different ways.

My personal preference and understanding is that "whole body" refers to the entire physical body and that doign that causes certain beneficial results in concentration and well-being in meditation.
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