wisdom - only sotapanna?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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tiltbillings
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by tiltbillings »

bump
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
pulga
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by pulga »

dhamma follower wrote: Naturally it is not an activity. Manasikara is a cetasika which arises with all citta, it is usually translated as attention, consideration...It is yoniso manasikara when it accompanies kusala citta, and in the case of vipassana bhavana, it is accompanied by panna. Because it is yoniso, it is free from taints, at the moment it arises.
This accords -- more or less -- with the traditional interpretation, cf. the MA to Sabbásavasutta where yoniso manasikara is identified with sotapattimagga, or the SA to Vipassísutta where it is coupled with an understanding, a penetration into the links of paticcasamuppáda.

I personally think that the Suttas themselves makes this apparent, but it is worth noting regarding yoniso manasikara that Ven. Bodhi finds the traditional interpretation "unsatisfactory" and in his footnote to the Vipassísutta (CDB 729) offers his own understanding of the term, placing yoniso manasikara before paññá and thus at the level of the puthujjana -- which is puzzling given that throughout the Suttas yoniso manasikara is attributed to the ariyasávaka, if not overtly, at least implicitly.
"Dhammā=Ideas. This is the clue to much of the Buddha's teaching." ~ Ven. Ñanavira, Commonplace Book
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tiltbillings
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by tiltbillings »

pulga wrote: . . . it is worth noting regarding yoniso manasikara that Ven. Bodhi finds the traditional interpretation "unsatisfactory" and in his footnote to the Vipassísutta (CDB 729) offers his own understanding of the term, placing yoniso manasikara before paññá and thus at the level of the puthujjana -- which is puzzling given that throughout the Suttas yoniso manasikara is attributed to the ariyasávaka, if not overtly, at least implicitly.
It should not be puzzling at all. With out the cultivation of yoniso manasikara how do you think paññá would arise?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
daverupa
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by daverupa »

pulga wrote:throughout the Suttas yoniso manasikara is attributed to the ariyasávaka, if not overtly, at least implicitly.
Hmm... yet the conditions for right view are (1) the voice of another and (2) yoniso manasikara, neh? So how can a puthujjana become a sekha if the requirement to do so is to already be one?
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
pulga
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by pulga »

daverupa wrote: Hmm... yet the conditions for right view are (1) the voice of another and (2) yoniso manasikara, neh? So how can a puthujjana become a sekha if the requirement to do so is to already be one?
I imagine it must be something like one of those pictures that the Gestaltists like to show us, only far, far more subtle and profound. If we don't look at it just right, attend to it properly, we don't see what is represented. But either we see it or we don't. One might brood over a misshapen blob for a lifetime, not giving it "proper attention", but once one does the picture appears.

In any case, this seems to be how the tradition interprets the term: and I think the Suttas support the spirit of that interpretation.
"Dhammā=Ideas. This is the clue to much of the Buddha's teaching." ~ Ven. Ñanavira, Commonplace Book
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tiltbillings
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Re: The causes for wisdom

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. . . in his footnote to the Vipassísutta (CDB 729) offers his own understanding of the term, placing yoniso manasikara before paññá and thus at the level of the puthujjana -- which is puzzling given that throughout the Suttas yoniso manasikara is attributed to the ariyasávaka, if not overtly, at least implicitly.
Ven Bodhi is quite correct in this.

AN I 4; NDB 91: For one who attends carefully [yoniso manasikara] to the mark of the unattractive, unarisen sensual desire does not arise and arisen sensual desire is abandoned.

AN I 13; NDB 100: Bhikkhus, I do not see even a single thing that so causes unarisen qualities to arise and arisen unwholesome qualities to decline as careful attention [yoniso manasikara].

AN I 15; NDB 102: For one who attends carefully [yoniso manasikara], unarisen factors of enlightenment arise and arisen factors of enlightenment reach fulfillment by development.

AN I 31; NDB 117: For one of careful attention, unarisen right view arises and arisen right view increases.

SN I 105; CDB 197: You to, bhikkhus, by careful attention, by careful right striving, must arrive at unsurpassed liberation, must realize unsurpassed liberation.

SN II 10; CDB 537 [here we clearly see in the whole of this discourse CDB 536-540 that careful attention precedes wisdom]: Then, bhikkhus, through careful attention, there took place in me a breakthrough by wisdom.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
pulga
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by pulga »

tiltbillings wrote:
AN I 4; NDB 91: For one who attends carefully [yoniso manasikara] to the mark of the unattractive, unarisen sensual desire does not arise and arisen sensual desire is abandoned.

AN I 13; NDB 100: Bhikkhus, I do not see even a single thing that so causes unarisen qualities to arise and arisen unwholesome qualities to decline as careful attention [yoniso manasikara].

AN I 15; NDB 102: For one who attends carefully [yoniso manasikara], unarisen factors of enlightenment arise and arisen factors of enlightenment reach fulfillment by development.

AN I 31; NDB 117: For one of careful attention, unarisen right view arises and arisen right view increases.

SN I 105; CDB 197: You to, bhikkhus, by careful attention, by careful right striving, must arrive at unsurpassed liberation, must realize unsurpassed liberation.

SN II 10; CDB 537 [here we clearly see in the whole of this discourse CDB 536-540 that careful attention precedes wisdom]: Then, bhikkhus, through careful attention, there took place in me a breakthrough by wisdom.
One needs to keep in mind that the Buddha didn't solely address puthujjanas, there were of course sekhas that needed to be exhorted and guided towards final liberation. Yoniso manasikara is so much regarded as an Ariyan attribute in the Suttas, that it seems such Suttas had to have been addressed to those already familiar with paticcasamuppáda.

SN II 10 is precisely where Ven. Bodhi explains in his footnote that he deviates from the traditional interpretation.

But I'm not here to argue. You're free to believe whatever you like.
"Dhammā=Ideas. This is the clue to much of the Buddha's teaching." ~ Ven. Ñanavira, Commonplace Book
daverupa
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by daverupa »

I think that idea is mistaken, pulga. I am not here to argue either - I am here to ensure that we are all quite clear about an essential condition for right view:
SN 22.122 wrote:On one occasion Ven. Sariputta & Ven. Maha Kotthita were staying near Varanasi in the Deer Park at Isipatana. Then Ven. Maha Kotthita, emerging from seclusion in the late afternoon, went to Ven. Sariputta and, on arrival, exchanged courteous greetings with him. After an exchange of friendly greetings & courtesies, he sat to one side. As he was sitting there, he said to Ven. Sariputta, "Sariputta my friend, which things should a virtuous monk attend to in an appropriate way?"

"A virtuous monk, Kotthita my friend, should attend in an appropriate way to the five clinging-aggregates as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a dissolution, an emptiness, not-self. Which five? Form as a clinging-aggregate, feeling... perception... fabrications... consciousness as a clinging-aggregate. A virtuous monk should attend in an appropriate way to these five clinging-aggregates as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a dissolution, an emptiness, not-self. For it is possible that a virtuous monk, attending in an appropriate way to these five clinging-aggregates as inconstant... not-self, would realize the fruit of stream-entry."
yoniso manasikara is here clearly practiced by both puthujjana and sekha alike. (arahants too! all aboard yoniso manasikara!)
Last edited by daverupa on Sat Mar 02, 2013 12:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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tiltbillings
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by tiltbillings »

pulga wrote:
One needs to keep in mind that the Buddha didn't solely address puthujjana, there were of course sekhasi] that needed to be exhorted and guided towards final liberation. Yoniso manasikara is so much regarded as an Aryan attribute in the Suttas, that it seems such Suttas had to have been addressed to those already familiar with paticcasamuppáda.
What do you mean "already familiar with paticcasamuppáda?" One can be familiar with paticcasamuppáda without yet having penetrated it, which is where yoniso manasikara comes into play. While yoniso manasikara may be an attribute of an ariya, it is a something to cultivate in order to attain to that level, otherwise one is stuck in the problem that we see with the Sujin people in this thread, you have to be awakened to be awakened.

Ven Bodhi is correct, and I have yet to see the sutta that unequivocally state that yoniso manasikara is only for the ariya. The suttas certainly paint a different picture. While I am not a reject the commentaries in toto as being a total waste of time sort of person, Ven Bodhi does make good arguments when he rejects a commentarial position, and I have yet to disagree with him when he does.


But I'm not here to argue. You're free to believe whatever you like.
It is not an argument; it is a discussion. And you certainly do not have to accept my point of view.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
pulga
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by pulga »

"A virtuous monk, Kotthita my friend, should attend in an appropriate way to the five clinging-aggregates as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a dissolution, an emptiness, not-self. Which five? Form as a clinging-aggregate, feeling... perception... fabrications... consciousness as a clinging-aggregate. A virtuous monk should attend in an appropriate way to these five clinging-aggregates as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a dissolution, an emptiness, not-self. For it is possible that a virtuous monk, attending in an appropriate way to these five clinging-aggregates as inconstant... not-self, would realize the fruit of stream-entry."
I don't see how that contradicts what I've written. On the contrary, it only affirms that attending to the khandhá in the proper way in accordance with the tilakkhana marks the transition from puthujjana to ariyan.
"Dhammā=Ideas. This is the clue to much of the Buddha's teaching." ~ Ven. Ñanavira, Commonplace Book
daverupa
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by daverupa »

pulga wrote:
"A virtuous monk, Kotthita my friend, should attend in an appropriate way to the five clinging-aggregates as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a dissolution, an emptiness, not-self. Which five? Form as a clinging-aggregate, feeling... perception... fabrications... consciousness as a clinging-aggregate. A virtuous monk should attend in an appropriate way to these five clinging-aggregates as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a dissolution, an emptiness, not-self. For it is possible that a virtuous monk, attending in an appropriate way to these five clinging-aggregates as inconstant... not-self, would realize the fruit of stream-entry."
I don't see how that contradicts what I've written. On the contrary, it only affirms that attending to the khandhá in the proper way in accordance with the tilakkhana marks the transition from puthujjana to ariyan.
It is possible, but not instantaneous. So there is a time where a certain virtuous puthujjana enacts yoniso manasikara without realizing any fruit. This is opposed to what you have said, which is that only sekha can enact yoniso manasikara, is it not?
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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tiltbillings
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by tiltbillings »

daverupa wrote:
It is possible, but not instantaneous. So there is a time where a certain virtuous puthujjana enacts yoniso manasikara without realizing any fruit.
And the suttas do not oppose that point.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
pulga
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by pulga »

daverupa wrote: It is possible, but not instantaneous.
In the Pali the present participle is used in correlation with sacchikareyyā: in other words, it's contemporaneous. (Besides the sutta is refering to sotápattiphala, not magga.) Let's not forget that even an understanding of the tilakkhana is ariyan. How is the puthujjana supposed to attend properly to what he doesn't understand? The dhammacakkhu is presented as a sudden insight in the Suttas, not something one gradually arrives at.

In addition it is worth noting that the sīlavata bhikkhu is not being referred to as a puthujjana in the Sutta. Might it be referring to one of the anusárí? The Sutta is ambiguous: I wouldn't base such an important aspect of the Teaching on something so anomalous and vague.
Last edited by pulga on Sat Mar 02, 2013 2:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
"Dhammā=Ideas. This is the clue to much of the Buddha's teaching." ~ Ven. Ñanavira, Commonplace Book
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tiltbillings
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Re: The causes for wisdom

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pulga wrote: . . .
The problem is, however, that you still have not effectively countered Ven Bodhi's educated demurral, or the other sutta statements that do not support your position.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
pulga
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by pulga »

tiltbillings wrote:Again, the question: Was the bodhisatta ariya befor his awakening?
We've already discussed the Vipassísutta. As I said, I'm inclined to follow the tradition in interpreting yoniso manasikara when used as such.
"Dhammā=Ideas. This is the clue to much of the Buddha's teaching." ~ Ven. Ñanavira, Commonplace Book
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