The causes for wisdom

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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tiltbillings
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Mar 02, 2013 3:15 am

pulga wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:The problem is, however, that you still have not effectively countered Ven Bodhi's educated demurral, or the other sutta statements that do not support your position.


Apart from his brief comment in his footnote I have never seen anything written by Ven. Bodhi supporting his reasons for departing from this fundamentally important aspect of the tradition.
The brief comment and the suttas texts themselves make a decent case. It would seem that otherwise if yoniso manasikara is only experienced by an ariya, you are left with the problem of being ariya arising from ayoniso manasikara. As i said, and as the suttas I quoted, I do not find your position compelling. By extension, your position would require than there is no jhana, no insights, no sila, right view, no right anything expect for the ariya, and you are left with the question of how one goes from being a worldling to being an ariya.
    >> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<<
    -- Proverbs 26:12

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Dhammanando
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby Dhammanando » Sat Mar 02, 2013 7:00 am

Pulga: I don't see how that contradicts what I've written. On the contrary, it only affirms that attending to the khandhá in the proper way in accordance with the tilakkhana marks the transition from puthujjana to ariyan.

Dave: It is possible, but not instantaneous...


More to the point, the phrase “ṭhānaṃ etaṃ vijjati ... sacchikareyya” (“it is possible ... he would realize.” More literally: “...this situation is to be found ... he may realize...”) would seem to contradict Pulga by indicating that stream-entry attainment is possible for such a person but not inevitable.

If it is merely a possibility that one attending appropriately may realize the fruit of stream-entry, then there is also a possibility that he may not. And all those who do not would count as instances of puthujjanas possessed of yoniso manasikāra. Hence yoniso manasikāra may be present in a puthujjana.
* * * * * * * * * * * *

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tiltbillings
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Mar 02, 2013 7:04 am

Dhammanando wrote: . . .
Thank you, bhante.
    >> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<<
    -- Proverbs 26:12

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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby Dhammanando » Sat Mar 02, 2013 7:18 am

pulga wrote:This accords -- more or less -- with the traditional interpretation, cf. the MA to Sabbásavasutta where yoniso manasikara is identified with sotapattimagga,


The commentary to this sutta defines the term twice, once giving the stock commentarial definition (the paragraph beginning: "tattha _yoniso manasikāro_ nāma upāyamanasikāro...") and once a context-specific one (notice the limiting adverb "ettha", "here"). It is only in the latter that sotāpattimagga is alluded to. In the general definition there's no limiting of yoniso mansikāra to ariyans.
* * * * * * * * * * * *

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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby pulga » Sat Mar 02, 2013 8:19 am

Dhammanando wrote:More to the point, the phrase “ṭhānaṃ etaṃ vijjati ... sacchikareyya” (“it is possible ... he would realize.” More literally: “...this situation is to be found ... he may realize...”) would seem to contradict Pulga by indicating that stream-entry attainment is possible for such a person but not inevitable.

If it is merely a possibility that one attending appropriately may realize the fruit of stream-entry, then there is also a possibility that he may not. And all those who do not would count as instances of puthujjanas possessed of yoniso manasikāra. Hence yoniso manasikāra may be present in a puthujjana.


Thank you for your input, Bhante. I find the Sutta problematical to the extent that it doesn't identify the silavata bhikkhu as being a puthujjana, and that it is exhorting him to practice yoniso manasikara for the realization of the fruit of stream-entry, not of the path. It reads as if the path has already been attained, that the silavata bhikkhu sees pancakkhandha as anicca, dukkha, and anatta, and is capable of attending to them accordingly. So I'm not really sure what level of attainment is implied. The commentary has nothing to say either way.

"Silavata bhikkhu" is a very uncommon designation in the Suttas. Might it be that given his ability to attend to the pancakkhandhá saccanulomika (to use the commentarial expression) as anicca, dukkha, and anatta, that the sutta may be referring to either a saddhanusari or to a dhammanusari, or both -- neither of whom should be regarded as puthujjanas?
Last edited by pulga on Sat Mar 02, 2013 10:26 am, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby pulga » Sat Mar 02, 2013 8:38 am

Dhammanando wrote:The commentary to this sutta defines the term twice, once giving the stock commentarial definition (the paragraph beginning: "tattha _yoniso manasikāro_ nāma upāyamanasikāro...") and once a context-specific one (notice the limiting adverb "ettha", "here"). It is only in the latter that sotāpattimagga is alluded to. In the general definition there's no limiting of yoniso mansikāra to ariyans.


Thank you once again, Bhante. The general definition does however bring in the notion of saccānulomika in defining yoniso manasikara.

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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Mar 02, 2013 9:12 am

pulga wrote: It reads as if the path has already been attained, that the silavata bhikkhu sees pancakkhanda as anicca, dukkha, and anatta, and is capable of attending to them accordingly. . .
No, it does not, not in the Ven Bodhi translation, CDB 970-1: "A virtuous bhikkhushould carefully attend to these five aggregates subject to clinging as impermanent . . . as non-self. When , friend, a virtuous bhikkhu carefully attends to these five aggregates subject to clinging, it is possible that he may realize the fruit of stream-entry. But, friend Sariputta, what are the things that a bhikkhu who is a stream-enterer should carefully attend to?" The distinction is made here between one who ariya and who is not, but who might become so based upon the careful attention employed. But there is no guarantee that any particuar incident of the practice of yoniso manasikara would necessarily lead to ariya status.

Let me as you a question here: Was the bodhisatta ariya before his awakening?
    >> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<<
    -- Proverbs 26:12

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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby pulga » Sat Mar 02, 2013 2:07 pm

Dhammanando wrote:If it is merely a possibility that one attending appropriately may realize the fruit of stream-entry, then there is also a possibility that he may not. And all those who do not would count as instances of puthujjanas possessed of yoniso manasikāra. Hence yoniso manasikāra may be present in a puthujjana.


Or it may imply that through the very act of yoniso manasikara and the accompanying penetration through understanding the path is attained, thus making it possible for the fruit to be realized. This might explain the silence in the Sutta as to whether the silavata bhikkhu is to be regarded as puthujjana or ariyan.

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tiltbillings
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Mar 02, 2013 5:05 pm

pulga wrote:
Dhammanando wrote:If it is merely a possibility that one attending appropriately may realize the fruit of stream-entry, then there is also a possibility that he may not. And all those who do not would count as instances of puthujjanas possessed of yoniso manasikāra. Hence yoniso manasikāra may be present in a puthujjana.


Or it may imply that through the very act of yoniso manasikara and the accompanying penetration through understanding the path is attained, thus making it possible for the fruit to be realized. This might explain the silence in the Sutta as to whether the silavata bhikkhu is to be regarded as puthujjana or ariyan.
The problem is, as we have seen, the particulat text in question is not saying what you are suggesting it is saying.
    >> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<<
    -- Proverbs 26:12

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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby pulga » Sat Mar 02, 2013 5:43 pm

tiltbillings wrote:The problem is, as we have seen, the particulat text in question is not saying what you are suggesting it is saying.


I think the crux of the matter is whether a puthujjana can properly attend to the pancupadanakkhandha as anicca, dukkha, and anatta. I say he can't, that the tilakkhana is beyond his ken.

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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby robertk » Sat Mar 02, 2013 6:30 pm

pulga wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:The problem is, as we have seen, the particulat text in question is not saying what you are suggesting it is saying.


I think the crux of the matter is whether a puthujjana can properly attend to the pancupadanakkhandha as anicca, dukkha, and anatta. I say he can't, that the tilakkhana is beyond his ken.

there are two type of putthujjana. the fully ignorant one and the one who is beginning to study and see the way, who is starting to understand the agggregates , the ayatanas, conditionality. this latter one may eventually discern nama and rupa and subsequently the tilakkhana.

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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby pulga » Sat Mar 02, 2013 7:13 pm

robertk wrote:there are two type of putthujjana. the fully ignorant one and the one who is beginning to study and see the way, who is starting to understand the agggregates , the ayatanas, conditionality. this latter one may eventually discern nama and rupa and subsequently the tilakkhana.


I take it your cat is a fully ignorant one.

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tiltbillings
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Mar 02, 2013 9:58 pm

pulga wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:The problem is, as we have seen, the particulat text in question is not saying what you are suggesting it is saying.


I think the crux of the matter is whether a puthujjana can properly attend to the pancupadanakkhandha as anicca, dukkha, and anatta. I say he can't, that the tilakkhana is beyond his ken.
It depends upon what you mean by "properly attend[ing] to the pancupadanakkhandha as anicca, dukkha, and anatta." Obviously one can have yoniso manasikara, but not yet attain to ariya status.

Again, the question: Was the bodhisatta ariya befor his awakening?
    >> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<<
    -- Proverbs 26:12

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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby pulga » Sat Mar 02, 2013 10:45 pm

tiltbillings wrote:Again, the question: Was the bodhisatta ariya befor his awakening?


We've already discussed the Vipassísutta. As I said, I'm inclined to follow the tradition in interpreting yoniso manasikara when used as such.

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tiltbillings
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Mar 02, 2013 10:51 pm

pulga wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Again, the question: Was the bodhisatta ariya befor his awakening?


We've already discussed the Vipassísutta. As I said, I'm inclined to follow the tradition in interpreting yoniso manasikara when used as such.
You are not answering the question, which is relevant to the issue of yoniso manasikara. And as for the "tradition," we have seen, via Ven Dhammanando's discussion of what the commentaries say, that your intial take on what was said was wrong.

And you have not addressed this point: "It depends upon what you mean by "properly attend[ing] to the pancupadanakkhandha as anicca, dukkha, and anatta." Obviously one can have yoniso manasikara, but not yet attain to ariya status," as the sutta quoted above clearly shows.
    >> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<<
    -- Proverbs 26:12

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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby pulga » Sat Mar 02, 2013 11:07 pm

tiltbillings wrote: Ven Dhammanando's discussion of what the commentaries say, that your intial take on what was said was wrong.
In what way?

tiltbillings wrote: And you have not addressed this point: "It depends upon what you mean by "properly attend[ing] to the pancupadanakkhandha as anicca, dukkha, and anatta."
And how do you mean it? How is it that a puthujjana can properly attend to the pancupandanakkhandha as anicca, dukkha, and anatta short of understanding them?

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tiltbillings
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Mar 03, 2013 12:16 am

pulga wrote:
tiltbillings wrote: Ven Dhammanando's discussion of what the commentaries say, that your initial take on what was said was wrong.
In what way?
You: viewtopic.php?f=16&t=15952&start=480#p233393

Ven Dhammanando: viewtopic.php?f=16&t=15952&start=500#p233469 and viewtopic.php?f=16&t=15952&start=500#p233471 and add to that the suttas I quoted.



tiltbillings wrote: And you have not addressed this point: "It depends upon what you mean by "properly attend[ing] to the pancupadanakkhandha as anicca, dukkha, and anatta."
And how do you mean it? How is it that a puthujjana can properly attend to the pancupandanakkhandha as anicca, dukkha, and anatta short of understanding them?
You made a statement and were asked about what you meant by it, so before I address your questions, you can please address mine.
    >> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<<
    -- Proverbs 26:12

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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby pulga » Sun Mar 03, 2013 8:46 am

tiltbillings wrote:You made a statement and were asked about what you meant by it, so before I address your questions, you can please address mine.


I really haven't gone through all the various texts and thought about the significance of yoniso manasikara enough to have any definite opinion about it. I don't find your examples definitive in coming to any conclusion. If there is some grand insight that you have contigent upon a mundane interpretation of the term, then please do share it forthrightly, and I'll give it some thought.

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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby pulga » Sun Mar 03, 2013 1:37 pm

Greetings Bhante,

Dhammanando wrote:In the general definition there's no limiting of yoniso mansikāra to ariyans.


Tattha yoniso manasikāro nāma upāyamanasikāro pathamanasikāro, aniccādīsu aniccanti ādinā eva nayena saccānulomikena vā cittassa āvaṭṭanā anvāvaṭṭanā ābhogo samannāhāro manasikāro, ayaṃ vuccati yoniso manasikāroti.


I'm not much into the Commentaries, so please correct me if I'm mistaken, but a lot of this claim hinges on how one understands saccanulomika. From what I've gathered it does seem to convey a conformity with the truth, which -- at least according to the tradition from which it is derived -- is no mere mundane truth of the unenlightened. From an Abhidhammic website I came across the following:

The Co. mentions under purity of view saccaanulomika~naa.na, conformity knowledge, and this is insight knowledge in conformity with the Truth, or adaptation knowledge. It is pa~n~naa that penetrates one of the three characteristics of impermanence, dukkha or anattaa. It surely leads to nibbaana, the subco. adds. It is followed by Path-consciousness and Fruition.


This would seem to have some significance on how some interpret the Sabbásavasutta. But I'm not here to paint anyone into a corner, or to make anyone lose face. The whole matter of yoniso manasikara is something I"ve just begun to delve into, and unfortunately there seems to be more in play in its interpretation than the mere purity of an understanding the Dhamma.

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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Mar 03, 2013 4:31 pm

pulga wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:You made a statement and were asked about what you meant by it, so before I address your questions, you can please address mine.


I really haven't gone through all the various texts and thought about the significance of yoniso manasikara enough to have any definite opinion about it.
It certainly looks like you expressed a definite opinion about yoniso manasikara being applicable only to ariya.

I don't find your examples definitive in coming to any conclusion. If there is some grand insight that you have contigent upon a mundane interpretation of the term, then please do share it forthrightly, and I'll give it some thought.
The examples I gave certainly point to, as Ven Dhammanando states:

'If it is merely a possibility that one attending appropriately may realize the fruit of stream-entry, then there is also a possibility that he may not. And all those who do not would count as instances of puthujjanas possessed of yoniso manasikāra. Hence yoniso manasikāra may be present in a puthujjana. . . . The commentary to this sutta defines the term twice, once giving the stock commentarial definition (the paragraph beginning: "tattha _yoniso manasikāro_ nāma upāyamanasikāro...") and once a context-specific one (notice the limiting adverb "ettha", "here"). It is only in the latter that sotāpattimagga is alluded to. In the general definition there's no limiting of yoniso mansikāra to ariyans,'

which neatly contradicts your claim that yoniso manasikara is apllicable only to ariya. Essentially the argument you made for the ariya only interpretation of yoniso manasikara has been shown via the commentaries and the suttas to be at best not well grounded.
    >> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<<
    -- Proverbs 26:12


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