zen non duality and theravada

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
alan...
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zen non duality and theravada

Post by alan... »

is the idea of non duality as the ultimate reality/nirvana found in theravada more or less or is it completely foreign?
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ground
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Re: zen non duality and theravada

Post by ground »

It may be found implicitly, not explicitly. :sage:
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Dan74
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Re: zen non duality and theravada

Post by Dan74 »

alan... wrote:is the idea of non duality as the ultimate reality/nirvana found in theravada more or less or is it completely foreign?
Zen is more along the lines of "not two, not one." Non-duality too often is a view, a position.
_/|\_
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m0rl0ck
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Re: zen non duality and theravada

Post by m0rl0ck »

This is the answer:
“If everything returns to the one, where does the one return to?”
Have fun.

EDIT: I got that phrasing of the koan from http://www.plumvillage.org/letters-from ... -koan.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
“The truth knocks on the door and you say, "Go away, I'm looking for the truth," and so it goes away. Puzzling.” ― Robert M. Pirsig
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Goofaholix
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Re: zen non duality and theravada

Post by Goofaholix »

m0rl0ck wrote:This is the answer:
“If everything returns to the one, where does the one return to?”
The everything.
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
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m0rl0ck
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Re: zen non duality and theravada

Post by m0rl0ck »

Goofaholix wrote:
m0rl0ck wrote:This is the answer:
“If everything returns to the one, where does the one return to?”
The everything.
Sort of. Maybe. Not really a good way to state it imo tho.
Its not a question meant to be answered as a mere riddle or trick of language.
“The truth knocks on the door and you say, "Go away, I'm looking for the truth," and so it goes away. Puzzling.” ― Robert M. Pirsig
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IanAnd
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Re: zen non duality and theravada

Post by IanAnd »

alan... wrote:is the idea of non duality as the ultimate reality/nirvana found in theravada more or less or is it completely foreign?
Perhaps this essay will help.

Dhamma and Non-duality

Bhikkhu Bodhi: "The teaching of the Buddha as found in the Pali canon does not endorse a philosophy of non-dualism of any variety, nor, I would add, can a non-dualistic perspective be found lying implicit within the Buddha's discourses."
"The gift of truth exceeds all other gifts" — Dhammapada, v. 354 Craving XXIV
Coyote
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Re: zen non duality and theravada

Post by Coyote »

Another view: http://www.amaravati.org/documents/the_ ... 18nod.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Coyote
"If beings knew, as I know, the results of giving & sharing, they would not eat without having given, nor would the stain of miserliness overcome their minds. Even if it were their last bite, their last mouthful, they would not eat without having shared."
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Coyote
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Re: zen non duality and theravada

Post by Coyote »

tiltbillings wrote:
Coyote wrote:Another view: http://www.amaravati.org/documents/the_ ... 18nod.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Coyote
That is horrible.
It's not my cup of tea either, but I posted it for the benefit of the OP, so that he could see that there are teachers holding other positions.
Also, It looks like a talk aimed at a very specific group of people - perhaps even non-buddhists.
"If beings knew, as I know, the results of giving & sharing, they would not eat without having given, nor would the stain of miserliness overcome their minds. Even if it were their last bite, their last mouthful, they would not eat without having shared."
Iti 26
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tiltbillings
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Re: zen non duality and theravada

Post by tiltbillings »

Coyote wrote:Another view: http://www.amaravati.org/documents/the_ ... 18nod.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Coyote
Thanks. That is to the point.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
alan...
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Re: zen non duality and theravada

Post by alan... »

IanAnd wrote:
alan... wrote:is the idea of non duality as the ultimate reality/nirvana found in theravada more or less or is it completely foreign?
Perhaps this essay will help.

Dhamma and Non-duality

Bhikkhu Bodhi: "The teaching of the Buddha as found in the Pali canon does not endorse a philosophy of non-dualism of any variety, nor, I would add, can a non-dualistic perspective be found lying implicit within the Buddha's discourses."
read it before i made this thread, don't agree entirely. on the parts where he talks about zen stating good and bad are the same and how that doesn't fit with theravada i wholly agree. and on the zen idea that meditation is pointless because of non duality (ie: if you meditate to become what you already are you chase it away) i find that to be totally absurd. someone with a ton of mental stress and distractions has little hope to see their own true nature if they don't learn to sit and look inward. imagine taking an alcoholic gambling addict who has just quit those vices and trying to teach them the dharma without meditation as a way to clean out all the terrible mental habits they have. or even worse, the zen idea that trying anything is redundant because we are already buddhas! imagine taking this alcoholic gambling addict who is currently gambling and drinking and trying to teach them the dharma! as opposed to someone who quits all bad habits, becomes moral, and then learns meditation, and THEN you teach them the dharma! much easier.

however all in all, i don't see much room in reality itself for duality, duality comes from the "I". without some illusion of "self" there would be no duality. that being said, i can't really make heads or tails out of it in the pali canon. there are definitely suttas that sound like this type of thing. like the bahiya sutta for example, sounds very zen. the idea that only what is happening is happening, only the seen, heard, etc. thinking this way we have non duality. or so i think. who knows?
Last edited by alan... on Mon Mar 04, 2013 4:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
alan...
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Re: zen non duality and theravada

Post by alan... »

Coyote wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
Coyote wrote:Another view: http://www.amaravati.org/documents/the_ ... 18nod.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Coyote
That is horrible.
It's not my cup of tea either, but I posted it for the benefit of the OP, so that he could see that there are teachers holding other positions.
Also, It looks like a talk aimed at a very specific group of people - perhaps even non-buddhists.
why is it horrible?
alan...
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Re: zen non duality and theravada

Post by alan... »

okay here's how i see it:

if you realize there is no self then you are no more different than a floating rock in space is to the universe. a rock floating in space is seen as just another part of the universe unless there is a sentient being to look and label it and decide it's an individual thing. only sentient entities are seen as things with "self", so if one realizes no self, they lose identity and become non dual ideas just like a rock in space with no sentient observer.

or from another perspective:

our bodies consist of a bunch of organs and microscopic cells that all work together yet we consider ourselves only one entity or "self". so we see our bodies as a single non dual entity when considered only in relation to itself, it is one thing. imagine if each organ was sentient, we would consider ourselves many selves and our bodies would be very dual. the same is true for everything, we see one galaxy we live in and then even bigger, one universe, and so on until we have to just give up and say everything is contained within ever expanding infinity. without the illusion of "I" there is no logical reason to consider anything as more than one, and since we can't define the universe in even that sense, non duality becomes just non, an ineffable idea that cannot be posited in any language other than direct dhamma realization.

i also consider imaging a universe with zero sentient beings. there would be no duality at all! it would just be one big thing. only by imagining a separate self can we create a non dual reality.

this sutta just makes things worse lol! but i see some correlation between some zen ideas and theravada.

i don't know that there are any zen teachings not in the tipitaka in some way or another.
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ground
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Re: zen non duality and theravada

Post by ground »

From the perspective of intuitive affirmation of self all appears as self. So every view that is fabricated is just this. Apply the instructions given to Bahiya. If that is not feasible then apply the standard. What else may be said? :sage:
alan...
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Re: zen non duality and theravada

Post by alan... »

ground wrote:From the perspective of intuitive affirmation of self all appears as self. So every view that is fabricated is just this. Apply the instructions given to Bahiya. If that is not feasible then apply the standard. What else may be said? :sage:
i'm not sure what you're trying to say exactly. also, what is "the standard"?
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