Emptiness - mahayana and theravada

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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bodom
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Re: Emptiness - mahayana and theravada

Post by bodom »

Heartwood of the Bodhi Tree by Buddhadasa Bhikkhu:

http://www.amazon.com/Heartwood-Bodhi-T ... 0861710355" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Liberation is the inevitable fruit of the path and is bound to blossom forth when there is steady and persistent practice. The only requirements for reaching the final goal are two: to start and to continue. If these requirements are met there is no doubt the goal will be attained. This is the Dhamma, the undeviating law.

- BB
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Ngawang Drolma.
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Re: Emptiness - mahayana and theravada

Post by Ngawang Drolma. »

stuka wrote:
clw_uk wrote:Is there a doctrinal difference between mahayana and theravada on emptiness? Is emptiness tied in with buddha nature or not?

Theravada: "Sabbe dhamma nalam abhinivesaya": Nothing whatever should be grasped at and clung to as "me" or "mine". The world is real, but we "see it" (experience it) through the distorted lens of our "own eyes".

Mahayana: "Everything is not inherently real". The world is a figment of your imagination.

Theravada does not postulate a "buddha nature".
Hi Stuka,

As I understand it, Mahayana posits that the world is as inherently "real" as "you" or "I" are. However, there are Mind-Only schools within Zen and Tibetan Buddhism (and possibly others that I don't know of).

But in short, I'm a vajrayana and I don't ascribe to mind-only teachings and I know others that don't as well. The way that the Dalai Lama and my teacher teach is more in tune with your description of the Theravadan approach. I don't mean to single you out, I'm just using your post as a springboard to explain more.

Kindly,
Drolma :mrgreen:
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Ngawang Drolma.
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Re: Emptiness - mahayana and theravada

Post by Ngawang Drolma. »

Element wrote:
clw_uk wrote:Is there a doctrinal difference between mahayana and theravada on emptiness? Is emptiness tied in with buddha nature or not?
The impression I gain of Mahayana emptiness is it tends towards nothingness.
This would be a gigantic mistake. I remember a teaching in which it was explained that people who fall into this thinking, mistaking voidness or nothingness for emptiness are "beyond help" meaning much more difficult to help than those with ordinary dukkha. This is the worst paraphrasing ever, please excuse that! And I can't remember the sutra.

But the message is clear. It is more dangerous to fall into the mistake of thinking one has realized emptiness when they're actually stuck in a bliss of voidness/nothingness than it is to be an ordinary person with dukkha.

Kind regards,
Drolma
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stuka
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Re: Emptiness - mahayana and theravada

Post by stuka »

Karunika wrote: :soap: Stuka, you can lump everyone together if you want, but I have never disparaged the Theravada, and I do not refer to it as Hinayana. As to "mahayana," I don't know what other word to use in order to describe it. I'm sure that Theravadan's use the same word to describe that vehicle because that is the term generally used by everyone.

Which does not change its perjorative origin at all.

Stuka, you are disparaging other traditions by saying they are speculations or are not true.
BEN wrote:Be mindful that personal views on the efficacy of Mahayanist or Vajrayanist doctrine do not breach the Terms of Service with regards to right speech.
If you said that according to Theravada, such and such in Mahayana is this or that, it would be different, but you are just dismissing it as wrong. There can be no helpful dialogue if you are going to play word games and not recognize your own prejudiced feelings.
If you disagree with what I have pointed out, then do present your case.
I have deep respect for the Theravada, and I started out as a Theravadin. We each follow the path that is best for us at the time. The best path is the one that helps you progress towards enlightenment. Debate about which school is better and what is wrong with such and such school is chatter that is not conducive to enlightenment, harmony, and the spreading of the Dharma.
You are distorting what is going on here. See moderator's note above.
You did the same thing at E-sangha, and now you are doing it here.
I spoke the truth there, and I speak it here. Note that there was a mass exodus there because of the suppression of the truth that was going on.
It seems that non-Theravadins are welcome here only if they accept that they are wrong and inferior to Theravada. Well, just because Theravadins may not have always been treated fairly elsewhere is no reason to disparage non-Theravadins here. You can call what you are doing anything you like, but it is clearly disparagement, and I'm not going to stick around while you continue with your pompous remarks disguised as pointing out the errors of others.

K
You got the Buddha's memo that said that you are responsible for your own perceptions and the distortions you inflict on them through papanca, right?
Dhammanando wrote: :focus:
What he said. :thumbsup:
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stuka
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Re: Emptiness - mahayana and theravada

Post by stuka »

bodom_bad_boy wrote:Heartwood of the Bodhi Tree by Buddhadasa Bhikkhu:

http://www.amazon.com/Heartwood-Bodhi-T ... 0861710355" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

GREAT book.

The hard-copy version is not the same as the electronic, BTW, it covers a lot more territory.
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stuka
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Re: Emptiness - mahayana and theravada

Post by stuka »

Drolma wrote:
Hi Stuka,

As I understand it, Mahayana posits that the world is as inherently "real" as "you" or "I" are. However, there are Mind-Only schools within Zen and Tibetan Buddhism (and possibly others that I don't know of).

But in short, I'm a vajrayana and I don't ascribe to mind-only teachings and I know others that don't as well. The way that the Dalai Lama and my teacher teach is more in tune with your description of the Theravadan approach. I don't mean to single you out, I'm just using your post as a springboard to explain more.

Kindly,
Drolma :mrgreen:
Heya Drolma,

I agree, the OP question is a bit over-broad.
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stuka
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Re: Emptiness - mahayana and theravada

Post by stuka »

Drolma wrote:
Element wrote:
clw_uk wrote:Is there a doctrinal difference between mahayana and theravada on emptiness? Is emptiness tied in with buddha nature or not?
The impression I gain of Mahayana emptiness is it tends towards nothingness.
This would be a gigantic mistake. I remember a teaching in which it was explained that people who fall into this thinking, mistaking voidness or nothingness for emptiness are "beyond help" meaning much more difficult to help than those with ordinary dukkha. This is the worst paraphrasing ever, please excuse that! And I can't remember the sutra.

But the message is clear. It is more dangerous to fall into the mistake of thinking one has realized emptiness when they're actually stuck in a bliss of voidness/nothingness than it is to be an ordinary person with dukkha.

Kind regards,
Drolma
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Element reminds us that the malady you speak of is "white-darkness".
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Ravana
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Re: Emptiness - mahayana and theravada

Post by Ravana »

Drolma wrote: Hi Stuka,

As I understand it, Mahayana posits that the world is as inherently "real" as "you" or "I" are. However, there are Mind-Only schools within Zen and Tibetan Buddhism (and possibly others that I don't know of).

But in short, I'm a vajrayana and I don't ascribe to mind-only teachings and I know others that don't as well. The way that the Dalai Lama and my teacher teach is more in tune with your description of the Theravadan approach. I don't mean to single you out, I'm just using your post as a springboard to explain more.

Kindly,
Drolma :mrgreen:
Hi,

Could you perhaps also explain

1) Which Mahayana schools accept that Samsara=Nibbana?

2) Which Mahayana schools accept that Arahats needed to be 'woken up' from nibbana and that then they must continue on the Bodhisattva path?
“The incomparable Wheel of Dhamma has been set in motion by the Blessed One in the deer sanctuary at Isipatana, and no seeker, brahmin, celestial being, demon, god, or any other being in the world can stop it.”
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