Two stories, one that Pali is an archaic language that is no longer spoken, and another that it's still spoken in Sri Lanka?
What is your opinion?
Inoshi
Spoken Pali?
- Cittasanto
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Re: Spoken Pali?
Pali is no longer a spoken language, although there are languages that have been heavily influenced by it and related/descendent languages.
Sri Lankan language is sinhalese, and is influenced by Pali, as is Thai & Burmese but they are not pali even though they have adopted some words, at times the meaning has changed slightly.
Modern Magadhi could be claimed to be a derivative as the ancient form, as it was said to be pali during the reign of Kink Akosa.
Nepali, and Hindhi are related and share various degrees of similar words with corresponding meaning but these stem from other regional dialects.
This is as I have been explained it by Sri Lankan Bhikkhus & some others.
Sri Lankan language is sinhalese, and is influenced by Pali, as is Thai & Burmese but they are not pali even though they have adopted some words, at times the meaning has changed slightly.
Modern Magadhi could be claimed to be a derivative as the ancient form, as it was said to be pali during the reign of Kink Akosa.
Nepali, and Hindhi are related and share various degrees of similar words with corresponding meaning but these stem from other regional dialects.
This is as I have been explained it by Sri Lankan Bhikkhus & some others.
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.
He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
Re: Spoken Pali?
Sinhalese has a ton of - not Pāli words, but Sanskrit words. For example, we say "Viṣuddhimārga" not "Viṣuddhimagga" and "nirvāna" not "nibbāna". But since Pāli and Sanskrit are very similar, it's pretty much like having Pāli words in the Sinhala language. (To my knowledge the way the words are pronounced are not very different from how an Indian Sanskrit speaker would pronounce them.)
In my un-scholarly opinion, North Indian languages seem to have deviated from Sanskrit roots with the influence of the Mughal Empire. If you listen to someone speaking Hindi, for example, you'll hear a lot of 'z' and 'f' sounds - sounds that don't exist in Pāli/Sanskrit. (These sounds used to be absent in Sinhalese, and were added very recently after European influences.) Don't know about Bengali and Nepali, though.
As for spoken Pāli, I do remember reading an interview with the late Ven. Balangoda Ānanda Maitreya, where he said when a Burmese Sayādāw came to Sri Lanka to propagate the Mahāsī method, they conversed in Pāli. So I guess we can't rule it out completely.
If there are any linguists around, I'd like to hear their opinion, I think it's a fascinating subject.
In my un-scholarly opinion, North Indian languages seem to have deviated from Sanskrit roots with the influence of the Mughal Empire. If you listen to someone speaking Hindi, for example, you'll hear a lot of 'z' and 'f' sounds - sounds that don't exist in Pāli/Sanskrit. (These sounds used to be absent in Sinhalese, and were added very recently after European influences.) Don't know about Bengali and Nepali, though.
As for spoken Pāli, I do remember reading an interview with the late Ven. Balangoda Ānanda Maitreya, where he said when a Burmese Sayādāw came to Sri Lanka to propagate the Mahāsī method, they conversed in Pāli. So I guess we can't rule it out completely.
If there are any linguists around, I'd like to hear their opinion, I think it's a fascinating subject.
"Delighting in existence, O monks, are gods and men; they are attached to existence, they revel in existence. When the Dhamma for the cessation of existence is being preached to them, their minds do not leap towards it, do not get pleased with it, do not get settled in it, do not find confidence in it. That is how, monks, some lag behind."
- It. p 43
- It. p 43
- tiltbillings
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Re: Spoken Pali?
The abbot of Wat Bowan (in Bangkok), when I was there in the mid 70's would speak Pali in conversation with a couple of other very old monks, who were obviously very old friends of his. I suspect that that is not usual.Inoshi wrote:Two stories, one that Pali is an archaic language that is no longer spoken, and another that it's still spoken in Sri Lanka?
What is your opinion?
Inoshi
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: Spoken Pali?
I remember in a similar thread Ajahn Dhammanando noted that it is not usual but can hapen particularly when there is no common language between the monks.tiltbillings wrote:The abbot of Wat Bowan (in Bagkok), when I was there in the mid 70's would speak Pali in conversation with a couple of other very old monks, who were obviously very old friends of his. I suspect that that is not usual.Inoshi wrote:Two stories, one that Pali is an archaic language that is no longer spoken, and another that it's still spoken in Sri Lanka?
What is your opinion?
Inoshi
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.
He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
Re: Spoken Pali?
Yes, I recall reading somewhere that it used to be common for Monks from different countries (Thailand, Burma, etc) to converse in Pali. Sayadaw Mahasi translated his "Progress of Insight" booklet http://www.aimwell.org/Books/Mahasi/Pro ... gress.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; from Burmese to Pali to make it accessible to knowledgeable Theravada Buddhists. I guess for much the same reason that Newton's Principia was in Latin...
Mike
Mike
Re: Spoken Pali?
tiltbillings wrote:The abbot of Wat Bowan (in Bangkok), when I was there in the mid 70's would speak Pali in conversation with a couple of other very old monks, who were obviously very old friends of his. I suspect that that is not usual.Inoshi wrote:Two stories, one that Pali is an archaic language that is no longer spoken, and another that it's still spoken in Sri Lanka?
What is your opinion?
Inoshi
As did the abbot of Wat Saket, thus I heard. Apparently, his conversational Pali was really good.
Re: Spoken Pali?
Well, I understand better the Sri Lankan story, and it appears we're discovering besides that living variation, there appears to be an extent to which Pali has continued to be spoken. Thanks all!
Inoshi
Inoshi