How can physical pain not be dukkha?

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Spiny Norman
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How can physical pain not be dukkha?

Post by Spiny Norman »

I've recently been through a period of chronic pain, and was reflecting on the experience, particularly in relation to the Arrow Sutta. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I did have some awareness that there was less suffering when I managed to accept the pain and get on with things, rather than being caught up in aversion and not wanting the pain.
But there was still the experience of pain ( the first arrow ) and it was unpleasant. So how can physical pain not be dukkha?
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Re: How can physical pain not be dukkha?

Post by Coyote »

It's dukkha just as the 5 khandhas are dukkha. The 5 khandhas for an Arahant don't cease, at least not immediately, but the clinging-aggregates are gone so there is no dukkha for the Arahant. It's the same with physical pain.
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Re: How can physical pain not be dukkha?

Post by Cittasanto »

porpoise wrote:I've recently been through a period of chronic pain, and was reflecting on the experience, particularly in relation to the Arrow Sutta. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I did have some awareness that there was less suffering when I managed to accept the pain and get on with things, rather than being caught up in aversion and not wanting the pain.
But there was still the experience of pain ( the first arrow ) and it was unpleasant. So how can physical pain not be dukkha?
I assume you mean not be the second arrow :) which you seem to of answered adequately yourself.
but Thank-you for the reminder.
One thing I find lessens pain is looking at the positive side of the pain. What opportunity has the pain actually given you? More opportunity to rest, or need to learn how to do something new?
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Re: How can physical pain not be dukkha?

Post by befriend »

at the time i was practicing shikantaza, i dislocated my shoulder, which is a very awkward painful feeling. on the way to the hospital, and in the ER room, i started meditating, doing shikantaza, which is just doing nothing until your thoughts quiet down, and your in the present moment. i started to feel alot of loving kindness, this feeling moved to my shoulder actually changing the unpleasant feeling of the dislocated shoulder into a pleasant feeling. when i stopped meditating the pain would come back. so this is how powerful love can be.
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Re: How can physical pain not be dukkha?

Post by Spiny Norman »

robertk wrote:It is dukkha.
Even for an Arahant?
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Re: How can physical pain not be dukkha?

Post by Spiny Norman »

Cittasanto wrote: One thing I find lessens pain is looking at the positive side of the pain. What opportunity has the pain actually given you? More opportunity to rest, or need to learn how to do something new?
The problem with chronic pain is that it kind of wears you down, and it's difficult not to feel aversion - just wanting to be rid of it. So maybe the learning point for me is about acceptance.
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Re: How can physical pain not be dukkha?

Post by Spiny Norman »

Coyote wrote:It's dukkha just as the 5 khandhas are dukkha. The 5 khandhas for an Arahant don't cease, at least not immediately, but the clinging-aggregates are gone so there is no dukkha for the Arahant. It's the same with physical pain.
Could you elaborate on how the clinging aggregates relate to physical pain - do you mean clinging to neutral or pleasant feeling, ie not wanting unpleasant feeling? In relation to the Arrow Sutta that seems to refer to the second arrow of mental pain. But isn't the Arahant still struck by the first arrow, physical pain?
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Re: How can physical pain not be dukkha?

Post by Spiny Norman »

befriend wrote:I started to feel alot of loving kindness, this feeling moved to my shoulder actually changing the unpleasant feeling of the dislocated shoulder into a pleasant feeling. when i stopped meditating the pain would come back. so this is how powerful love can be.
That's really impressive - I obviously have a long way to go.
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Re: How can physical pain not be dukkha?

Post by Coyote »

porpoise wrote:
Coyote wrote:It's dukkha just as the 5 khandhas are dukkha. The 5 khandhas for an Arahant don't cease, at least not immediately, but the clinging-aggregates are gone so there is no dukkha for the Arahant. It's the same with physical pain.
Could you elaborate on how the clinging aggregates relate to physical pain - do you mean clinging to neutral or pleasant feeling, ie not wanting unpleasant feeling? In relation to the Arrow Sutta that seems to refer to the second arrow of mental pain. But isn't the Arahant still struck by the first arrow, physical pain?
Well, as I understand it, the Arahant still experiences physical pain - just as they experience the five khandhas. They no longer experience the clinging-aggregates because they no longer cling to anything. It's the difference between nibbana and parinibbana.
Pain is vedana. But vedana, whether or not it is painful is still dukkha. It's a burden that the Arahant gives up upon reaching parinibbana. On reaching arahantship neither physical pain nor pleasant feeling are dukkha for the arahant, even though they are objectively dukkha - because the clinging has been given up. Just as the experience of an Arahant in terms of the khandhas is inconstant and anatta, it is also dukkha.
Say the Arahant was on fire - the fact that he/she is an arahant doesn't change this fact, doesn't make it any less bad. But because he/she is an Arahant it does not disturb them.
But it is all dukkha anyway, whether or not there is painful feeling. Sabbe sankhara dukkha.
At least, this is how I have heard it taught, and seems to make sense to me.

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Re: How can physical pain not be dukkha?

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala »

The aggregate of feeling (vedanākkhandha), is a mental aggregate. When we say "physical pain," it is still mentality, but it conditioned by materiality (rūpa), such as hardness, burning, or pressure. When we say "mental pain," we are referring to grief, sorrow, and despair which derive from mental contact.

The Arahant cannot be free from the aggregate of feeling unless he or she is absorbed in the cessation of perception and feeling (nibbāna). If an Arahant is hit with a stick, or afflicted by a disease, he or she will definitely feel painful feelings. However, since an Arahant is always mindful of impermanence, he or she is not afflicted by mental pain — and does not wish, “If only this pain would go away,” which would mean aversion. An Arahant fully understands that it is conditioned, and will only cease when the conditions cease.

The case of the ardent meditator who has attained to Knowledge of Equanimity About Formations (saṅkhārūpekhañāṇa) is the same, except that if he or she stops meditating painful physical or mental feelings might again cause mental suffering.

An ordinary lay person or monk, or a Stream-winner like Anāthapindika could overcome painful feelings through diligent contemplation.
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Re: How can physical pain not be dukkha?

Post by Modus.Ponens »

Thank you Bhante for your clarification. Can you please point out if your clarification is suported by the abhidhamma? From my understanding of the suttas, and from that view point alone, your clarification is an excelent and clear way to express what I thought about this subject in a sort of confused way. I'm just curious to see what the abhidhamma has to say on this.

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Re: How can physical pain not be dukkha?

Post by Awakening »

Dukkha is not something that happens to one, it is something that one participates in. Physical pain is actually just another phenomena, your perception of it and resistance to it is what makes it dukkha. Arahants are free from dukkha, but not necessarily the bare phenomena of what is called "physical pain".
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Re: How can physical pain not be dukkha?

Post by kirk5a »

These three feelings have been spoken of by me: a feeling of pleasure, a feeling of pain, & a feeling of neither pleasure nor pain. These are the three feelings spoken of by me. But I have also said: 'Whatever is felt comes under stress.' That I have stated simply in connection with the inconstancy of fabrications. That I have stated simply in connection with the nature of fabrications to end... in connection with the nature of fabrications to fall away... to fade away... to cease... in connection with the nature of fabrications to change.
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Re: How can physical pain not be dukkha?

Post by Spiny Norman »

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:The Arahant cannot be free from the aggregate of feeling unless he or she is absorbed in the cessation of perception and feeling (nibbāna). If an Arahant is hit with a stick, or afflicted by a disease, he or she will definitely feel painful feelings. However, since an Arahant is always mindful of impermanence, he or she is not afflicted by mental pain — and does not wish, “If only this pain would go away,” which would mean aversion. An Arahant fully understands that it is conditioned, and will only cease when the conditions cease.
Thanks Bhante. What I'm still not clear about is whether the physical pain experienced by an Arahant is categorised as dukkha? The sutta descriptions of dukkha usually include physical pain, but is that just applicable to an ordinary person?
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