Do enlightened people experience kamma vipaka

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Do enlightened people experience kamma vipaka

Postby BlueLotus » Thu Feb 28, 2013 11:56 am

Dear forum,

Do enlightened people experience kamma vipaka (fruits of good and bad kamma)? If not, where did the Buddha say so?

Thank you :anjali:
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Re: Do enlightened people experience kamma vipaka

Postby daverupa » Thu Feb 28, 2013 12:09 pm

I forget the name, but one arahant was allegedly murdered due to kammavipaka.
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: Do enlightened people experience kamma vipaka

Postby BlueLotus » Thu Feb 28, 2013 12:39 pm

daverupa wrote:I forget the name, but one arahant was allegedly murdered due to kammavipaka.


Is that ven maha moggallana?
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Re: Do enlightened people experience kamma vipaka

Postby BlueLotus » Thu Feb 28, 2013 12:41 pm

The confusing part is that I remember reading somewhere that when nibbana is realized he produces no kamma (good or bad) and his past kamma gets cancelled (nivarana). Maybe I am mistaken.
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Re: Do enlightened people experience kamma vipaka

Postby daverupa » Thu Feb 28, 2013 12:50 pm

BlueLotus wrote:
daverupa wrote:I forget the name, but one arahant was allegedly murdered due to kammavipaka.


Is that ven maha moggallana?


That's the one. "He was beaten to death by bandits. This was attributed to negative karma accrued in a past life in which he clubbed his parents to death."
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: Do enlightened people experience kamma vipaka

Postby BlueLotus » Thu Feb 28, 2013 12:51 pm

wow :jawdrop:
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Re: Do enlightened people experience kamma vipaka

Postby BlueLotus » Thu Feb 28, 2013 12:52 pm

Hi Devarupan,

Did the Buddha experience fruits of bad past kamma according to suttas?
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Re: Do enlightened people experience kamma vipaka

Postby daverupa » Thu Feb 28, 2013 12:57 pm

Translator's note: Cullavagga VII tells of how Devadatta, the Buddha's cousin, tried unsuccessfully in various ways to wrest leadership of the Sangha from the Buddha. In Cv VII.3.9, he tries to kill the Buddha by hurling a rock down a mountainside. The rock is crushed, and so misses the Buddha, but sends out a splinter that pierces the Buddha's foot, drawing blood. According to the Commentary, this discourse together with SN 4.13 describe the Buddha's reaction to this attempt on his life.


It seems to be possible to see this in that way, but it's a stretch given Devadatta's free will. I don't see any immediate doctrinal problems in and of itself, however.
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: Do enlightened people experience kamma vipaka

Postby BlueLotus » Thu Feb 28, 2013 1:18 pm

daverupa wrote:
Translator's note: Cullavagga VII tells of how Devadatta, the Buddha's cousin, tried unsuccessfully in various ways to wrest leadership of the Sangha from the Buddha. In Cv VII.3.9, he tries to kill the Buddha by hurling a rock down a mountainside. The rock is crushed, and so misses the Buddha, but sends out a splinter that pierces the Buddha's foot, drawing blood. According to the Commentary, this discourse together with SN 4.13 describe the Buddha's reaction to this attempt on his life.


It seems to be possible to see this in that way, but it's a stretch given Devadatta's free will. I don't see any immediate doctrinal problems in and of itself, however.

I don't get it :embarassed:
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Re: Do enlightened people experience kamma vipaka

Postby daverupa » Thu Feb 28, 2013 2:14 pm

BlueLotus wrote:
daverupa wrote:
Translator's note: Cullavagga VII tells of how Devadatta, the Buddha's cousin, tried unsuccessfully in various ways to wrest leadership of the Sangha from the Buddha. In Cv VII.3.9, he tries to kill the Buddha by hurling a rock down a mountainside. The rock is crushed, and so misses the Buddha, but sends out a splinter that pierces the Buddha's foot, drawing blood. According to the Commentary, this discourse together with SN 4.13 describe the Buddha's reaction to this attempt on his life.


It seems to be possible to see this in that way, but it's a stretch given Devadatta's free will. I don't see any immediate doctrinal problems in and of itself, however.

I don't get it :embarassed:


It's an occasion of the Buddha experiencing violence in a similar way as with the bandits who murdered Maha Moggallana; in that latter case kammavipaka was described, but the bandits are made into kamma-functionaries for that purpose rather than beings making bad choices they might not have.

In the former case, as quoted, there doesn't seem to be any sutta statement about the Buddha's experience being kammavipaka, and the network of suttas on the topic simply emphasize mindful alertness.

So, I don't see any particular doctrinal difficulty here in suggesting that it is possible for awakened beings to experience these sorts of things, but the philosophical issue of free will gets involved when speculation about kamma really starts warming up, and such lines of inquiry lie close to conceiving, it seems to me, as well as getting close to imponderable territory...
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: Do enlightened people experience kamma vipaka

Postby Bhikkhu Pesala » Thu Feb 28, 2013 5:38 pm

When past evil Kamma gives its present evil results, the perpetrators (Devadatta or the hired thugs who killed Moggallāna at the behest of the heretics) are not doing it because of the past evil kamma of the victim, otherwise they would be free from any consequences of their own actions. They are driven by their own evil kamma to do evil deeds. They, in turn, were captured and executed by the king, as were the heretics who hired them. All experienced the vipāka of their evil deeds and were reborn in hell after death.

Thugs who are willing to kill anyone for a fee have a long habit of doing such evil deeds. Their will is neither completely free nor completely compelled, but conditioned by previous causes.

All of the royal archers who were sent by Ajātassattu to kill the Buddha due to the urging of Devadatta, did not carry out their initial intent. They were converted by the Buddha's great compassion and skilful means, and all became monks, so that plot came to naught. Likewise, the drunken elephant Nāḷagiri was tamed by the Buddha's mettā.

The Buddha experienced several negative results due to past kamma bearing fruit. Due to insulting the Buddha Kassapa as a "Bald headed recluse," he had to endure six years of extreme asceticism, whereas not all previous Buddhas had to do the same.

The law of kamma is not fatalism. There are light evil kammas (ahosi) that expire and never give results. There are medium kammas that may be diverted by wholesome deeds done later, there are heavy kammas the results of which can be mitigated, and there are heavy kammas that must give their results.

The idea of free-will implies the presence of a self or soul who is free to decide whether to act or not. In fact, our decisions are conditioned by many factors. Psychological research has shown that merely asking someone to hold a warm drink in their hand instead of a cold drink, can make them feel more positive about a person they talk too, influencing their decision whether they would give that person a job or not.
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Re: Do enlightened people experience kamma vipaka

Postby Awakening » Wed Mar 06, 2013 4:16 am

Yes, otherwise the nama-rupa of the enlightened being would "disappear" upon enlightenment. Instead, nama-rupa continues to unfold according to karmic conditioning.
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Re: Do enlightened people experience kamma vipaka

Postby retrofuturist » Wed Mar 06, 2013 5:19 am

Greetings BlueLotus,

BlueLotus wrote:Do enlightened people experience kamma vipaka (fruits of good and bad kamma)? If not, where did the Buddha say so?

He didn't conclusively say whether they did or they didn't (keeping in mind that not everything that happens happens because of kamma).

Personally I think no... no, they don't, and there's reasons for that perspective, but I'm disinclined to go into it knowing the resistance that such a perspective comes up against.

Perhaps if you can explain why you're asking the question.....?

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Do enlightened people experience kamma vipaka

Postby rohana » Wed Mar 06, 2013 8:18 pm

From the Angulimāla Sutta:

    And thus Ven. Angulimala became another one of the arahants.

    Then Ven. Angulimala, early in the morning, having put on his robes and carrying his outer robe & bowl, went into Savatthi for alms. Now at that time a clod thrown by one person hit Ven. Angulimala on the body, a stone thrown by another person hit him on the body, and a potsherd thrown by still another person hit him on the body. So Ven. Angulimala — his head broken open and dripping with blood, his bowl broken, and his outer robe ripped to shreds — went to the Blessed One. The Blessed One saw him coming from afar and on seeing him said to him: "Bear with it, brahman! Bear with it! The fruit of the kamma that would have burned you in hell for many years, many hundreds of years, many thousands of years, you are now experiencing in the here-&-now!"

And then in the verses uttered by the Venerable before his parinibbāna, he says:

    Having done the type of kamma
    that would lead to many
    bad destinations,
    touched by the fruit of [that] kamma,
    unindebted, I eat my food.
So I guess the answer is - yes, they experience vipāka until parinibbāna.
"Delighting in existence, O monks, are gods and men; they are attached to existence, they revel in existence. When the Dhamma for the cessation of existence is being preached to them, their minds do not leap towards it, do not get pleased with it, do not get settled in it, do not find confidence in it. That is how, monks, some lag behind."
- It. p 43
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Re: Do enlightened people experience kamma vipaka

Postby acinteyyo » Wed Mar 06, 2013 10:37 pm

Hi,

I do not know whether this helps or not but I'll try to share some thoughts.
The Kamma Sutta suggests that old kamma is the eye, ear, nose... and the Sabba Sutta states that the all is the eye, ear, nose and their corresponding objects... thus the conclusion can be made that old kamma is at least "half" of the all or the world (Loka Sutta SN35.82). Another Loka Sutta (SN12.44) states the following:
From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving. Now, from the remainderless cessation & fading away of that very craving comes the cessation of clinging/sustenance. From the cessation of clinging/sustenance comes the cessation of becoming. From the cessation of becoming comes the cessation of birth. From the cessation of birth, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair all cease. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of stress & suffering. This is the ending of the world.
Well, an enlightened being is free from craving and therefore the cessation of the mentioned things above should have taken place which leads to the assumption that the cessation of old kamma had also taken place. Now I assume that the fruit of action (kamma vipaka) is also part of the all. This means that the end of the world is also the end of kamma vipaka. As I understand it, the only conclusion possible is that for an enlightened being there is no kamma and no kamma vipaka.

I know... I know... some people may ask what about the body which is still here, the physical eye and so on, the person is not blind and deaf... and things like that. I don't know, but I seriously ask whether it is correct to assume that the body, the eye, the ability to see or hear tells us anything about the existence of a being "there" in the first place? As I see things at the moment... what I might experience as the body of an enlightened being is nothing else but "MY" experience of a phenomena which I declare as the body of an enlightened being and if this tells me anything at all then rather that I still have to practice instead to trust "MY" experience :tongue:
Malunkyaputta Sutta (SN35.95) wrote:When for you there will be only the seen in reference to the seen, only the heard in reference to the heard, only the sensed in reference to the sensed, only the cognized in reference to the cognized, then, Malunkyaputta, there is no you in connection with that. When there is no you in connection with that, there is no you there. When there is no you there, you are neither here nor yonder nor between the two. This, just this, is the end of stress."

Just some thoughts...

best wishes, acinteyyo
Pubbe cāhaṃ bhikkhave, etarahi ca dukkhañceva paññāpemi, dukkhassa ca nirodhaṃ. (M.22)
Both formerly, monks, and now, it is just suffering that I make known and the ending of suffering.
Pathabyā ekarajjena, saggassa gamanena vā sabbalokādhipaccena, sotāpattiphalaṃ varaṃ. (Dhp 178)
Sole dominion over the earth, going to heaven or lordship over all worlds: the fruit of stream-entry excels them.

:anjali:
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Re: Do enlightened people experience kamma vipaka

Postby kirk5a » Thu Mar 07, 2013 4:01 pm

Let's consider an example, see if you can spot the flaw in the logic:

Dependent upon wood, air, and heat, a log is on fire. If the fire ceases, the cessation of the aforementioned things should have taken place.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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Re: Do enlightened people experience kamma vipaka

Postby acinteyyo » Thu Mar 07, 2013 4:24 pm

kirk5a wrote:Let's consider an example, see if you can spot the flaw in the logic:

Dependent upon wood, air, and heat, a log is on fire. If the fire ceases, the cessation of the aforementioned things should have taken place.

I guess you are referring to this:
acinteyyo wrote:Well, an enlightened being is free from craving and therefore the cessation of the mentioned things above should have taken place which leads to the assumption that the cessation of old kamma had also taken place.

You're example does not correspond to my sentence above, if this was your intention.
The logical sentence is: "Dependent of x there is y, with the cessation of x there comes the cessation of y" i.e. Dependent of craving there is the world, with the cessation of craving comes the cessation of the world. (kamma being part of the world)
But the logic of your example is: "Dependent upon x (wood,air&heat), y is on fire. If the fire ceases, the cessation of the aforementioned things (x maybe y too) should have taken place. The only logical connection here is x and fire of y. If there is no fire there is probably no x (or not the right proportion of x). But it doesn't tell us anything about the origination of y neither of its cessation.

best wishes, acinteyyo
Pubbe cāhaṃ bhikkhave, etarahi ca dukkhañceva paññāpemi, dukkhassa ca nirodhaṃ. (M.22)
Both formerly, monks, and now, it is just suffering that I make known and the ending of suffering.
Pathabyā ekarajjena, saggassa gamanena vā sabbalokādhipaccena, sotāpattiphalaṃ varaṃ. (Dhp 178)
Sole dominion over the earth, going to heaven or lordship over all worlds: the fruit of stream-entry excels them.

:anjali:
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Re: Do enlightened people experience kamma vipaka

Postby kirk5a » Fri Mar 08, 2013 3:12 am

MN140 makes it quite clear that the final cessation of "old kamma" does not occur until the death of an arahant.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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Re: Do enlightened people experience kamma vipaka

Postby retrofuturist » Fri Mar 08, 2013 3:17 am

Greetings,

kirk5a wrote:MN140 makes it quite clear that the final cessation of "old kamma" does not occur until the death of an arahant.

You say that MN 140 does this but I could find no reference to "old kamma" in this translation...

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

... so for now at least, it's not 'quite clear'.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Do enlightened people experience kamma vipaka

Postby kirk5a » Fri Mar 08, 2013 3:20 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,

kirk5a wrote:MN140 makes it quite clear that the final cessation of "old kamma" does not occur until the death of an arahant.

You say that MN 140 does this but I could find no reference to "old kamma" in this translation...

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

... so for now at least, it's not 'quite clear'.

Ok, one step, by definition:
"Now what, monks, is old kamma? The eye is to be seen as old kamma, fabricated & willed, capable of being felt. The ear... The nose... The tongue... The body... The intellect is to be seen as old kamma, fabricated & willed, capable of being felt. This is called old kamma.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
One discerns that 'With the break-up of the body, after the termination of life, all that is sensed, not being relished, will grow cold right here.'

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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