But physical pain ( the first arrow ) is still an unpleasant experience isn't it?Awakening wrote: Physical pain is actually just another phenomena, your perception of it and resistance to it is what makes it dukkha. Arahants are free from dukkha, but not necessarily the bare phenomena of what is called "physical pain".
How can physical pain not be dukkha?
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Re: How can physical pain not be dukkha?
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Re: How can physical pain not be dukkha?
and patience (Khanti), it is a foundation for equanimityporpoise wrote:The problem with chronic pain is that it kind of wears you down, and it's difficult not to feel aversion - just wanting to be rid of it. So maybe the learning point for me is about acceptance.Cittasanto wrote: One thing I find lessens pain is looking at the positive side of the pain. What opportunity has the pain actually given you? More opportunity to rest, or need to learn how to do something new?
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He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
Re: How can physical pain not be dukkha?
It's really just bare phenomena. Whether or not it is perceived as unpleasant is a matter of perception. Try observing the so-called pain with pure mindfulness, and you'll find that it's just spatial phenomena.porpoise wrote:But physical pain ( the first arrow ) is still an unpleasant experience isn't it?Awakening wrote: Physical pain is actually just another phenomena, your perception of it and resistance to it is what makes it dukkha. Arahants are free from dukkha, but not necessarily the bare phenomena of what is called "physical pain".
Re: How can physical pain not be dukkha?
Like somebody mentioned here.. it is 'mental', though it certainly seems inevitable and has a natural tendency toward, grief/suffering/aversion.
I recall a time I was playing tennis or something like that and I was so focused on the game that I did not realize that I was slashing and stabbing my body with a safety pin that opened up (which was holding up my pants). Only when I realized that the sensations I was feeling (like a pulling on the skin) was a safety pin gouging into my skin, and seeing the blood and what was occurring, that I started to feel the pain. I remember this clearly; before that, it was just vague sensations, not even pain yet, and certainly not suffering.
Another example is that I have allergies to pollen, yet I have no symptoms while I am asleep. (This may be the same with pain.) It is only when I wake up that I start having allergy symptoms, or feel pain.
This is evidence that it is mental. In fact, even sensation itself, like touch is mental. It does not occur on the body. It occurs in the mind.
I recall a time I was playing tennis or something like that and I was so focused on the game that I did not realize that I was slashing and stabbing my body with a safety pin that opened up (which was holding up my pants). Only when I realized that the sensations I was feeling (like a pulling on the skin) was a safety pin gouging into my skin, and seeing the blood and what was occurring, that I started to feel the pain. I remember this clearly; before that, it was just vague sensations, not even pain yet, and certainly not suffering.
Another example is that I have allergies to pollen, yet I have no symptoms while I am asleep. (This may be the same with pain.) It is only when I wake up that I start having allergy symptoms, or feel pain.
This is evidence that it is mental. In fact, even sensation itself, like touch is mental. It does not occur on the body. It occurs in the mind.
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Re: How can physical pain not be dukkha?
And yet a distinction is made in the suttas between physical and mental pain, an obvious example being the Arrow Sutta. I'm not sure that saying everything is experienced in the mind really gets to the point of this distinction.Nori wrote:This is evidence that it is mental. In fact, even sensation itself, like touch is mental. It does not occur on the body. It occurs in the mind.
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Re: How can physical pain not be dukkha?
Nope, it doesn't. The final end of physical dukkha is parinibbana. Til then, even an arahant has to endure physical dukkha. The composure in the face of which might seem astonishing to the rest of us.porpoise wrote:And yet a distinction is made in the suttas between physical and mental pain, an obvious example being the Arrow Sutta. I'm not sure that saying everything is experienced in the mind really gets to the point of this distinction.Nori wrote:This is evidence that it is mental. In fact, even sensation itself, like touch is mental. It does not occur on the body. It occurs in the mind.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;Then another devata exclaimed in the Blessed One's presence: "What a strong burden-carrier is Gotama the contemplative! And like a strong burden-carrier, when bodily feelings have arisen — painful, fierce, sharp, wracking, repellent, disagreeable — he endures them mindful, alert, & unperturbed!"
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230