Do enlightened people experience kamma vipaka

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retrofuturist
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Re: Do enlightened people experience kamma vipaka

Postby retrofuturist » Fri Mar 08, 2013 3:33 am

Greetings Kirk,

I can see how you got from A to B, but I wouldn't regard that which represents "life" and that which is "fabricated and willed" as synonymous... especially in the context of an arahant.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"When we transcend one level of truth, the new level becomes what is true for us. The previous one is now false. What one experiences may not be what is experienced by the world in general, but that may well be truer. (Ven. Nanananda)

“I hope, Anuruddha, that you are all living in concord, with mutual appreciation, without disputing, blending like milk and water, viewing each other with kindly eyes.” (MN 31)

Never again...

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kirk5a
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Re: Do enlightened people experience kamma vipaka

Postby kirk5a » Fri Mar 08, 2013 3:55 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Kirk,

I can see how you got from A to B, but I wouldn't regard that which represents "life" and that which is "fabricated and willed" as synonymous... especially in the context of an arahant.

Is something riding on those being synonymous? I don't see what your point is.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

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Re: Do enlightened people experience kamma vipaka

Postby retrofuturist » Fri Mar 08, 2013 4:43 am

Greetings Kirk,

The SN 35.145 extract on old kamma sounds phenomenlogical in intent (i.e. kaya-sankhara, mano-sankhara), whereas the MN 140 extract on death sounds ontological in intent.

Personally wouldn't use an ontological statement as the basis for affirming or rejecting a phenomenological statement. That's all.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"When we transcend one level of truth, the new level becomes what is true for us. The previous one is now false. What one experiences may not be what is experienced by the world in general, but that may well be truer. (Ven. Nanananda)

“I hope, Anuruddha, that you are all living in concord, with mutual appreciation, without disputing, blending like milk and water, viewing each other with kindly eyes.” (MN 31)

Never again...

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kirk5a
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Re: Do enlightened people experience kamma vipaka

Postby kirk5a » Fri Mar 08, 2013 5:17 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Kirk,

The SN 35.145 extract on old kamma sounds phenomenlogical in intent (i.e. kaya-sankhara, mano-sankhara), whereas the MN 140 extract on death sounds ontological in intent.

Personally wouldn't use an ontological statement as the basis for affirming or rejecting a phenomenological statement. That's all.

Is there any guidance from the suttas on differentiating between "phenomenological statements" and "ontological statements"?
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

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Re: Do enlightened people experience kamma vipaka

Postby retrofuturist » Fri Mar 08, 2013 5:39 am

Greetings Kirk,

kirk5a wrote:Is there any guidance from the suttas on differentiating between "phenomenological statements" and "ontological statements"?

It's not a classification scheme called out in the suttas, so no.... but we do often see the Buddha reframing certain prevailing concepts (e.g. loka, sabba) from ontological to phenomenological perspectives, so it's not without precedent.

The fact something like "old kamma" is formed (sankhata) suggests to me it is the product of avijja (i.e. a product of dependent origination), and thus phenomenological. I'm not here to argue the point, just to explain how I see it.... you may take it or leave it as you see fit.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"When we transcend one level of truth, the new level becomes what is true for us. The previous one is now false. What one experiences may not be what is experienced by the world in general, but that may well be truer. (Ven. Nanananda)

“I hope, Anuruddha, that you are all living in concord, with mutual appreciation, without disputing, blending like milk and water, viewing each other with kindly eyes.” (MN 31)

Never again...


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