Do enlightened people experience kamma vipaka

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retrofuturist
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Re: Do enlightened people experience kamma vipaka

Postby retrofuturist » Fri Mar 08, 2013 3:33 am

Greetings Kirk,

I can see how you got from A to B, but I wouldn't regard that which represents "life" and that which is "fabricated and willed" as synonymous... especially in the context of an arahant.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


Dharma Wheel (Mahayana / Vajrayana forum) -- Open flower ~ Open book (blog)

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Re: Do enlightened people experience kamma vipaka

Postby kirk5a » Fri Mar 08, 2013 3:55 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Kirk,

I can see how you got from A to B, but I wouldn't regard that which represents "life" and that which is "fabricated and willed" as synonymous... especially in the context of an arahant.

Is something riding on those being synonymous? I don't see what your point is.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

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Re: Do enlightened people experience kamma vipaka

Postby retrofuturist » Fri Mar 08, 2013 4:43 am

Greetings Kirk,

The SN 35.145 extract on old kamma sounds phenomenlogical in intent (i.e. kaya-sankhara, mano-sankhara), whereas the MN 140 extract on death sounds ontological in intent.

Personally wouldn't use an ontological statement as the basis for affirming or rejecting a phenomenological statement. That's all.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


Dharma Wheel (Mahayana / Vajrayana forum) -- Open flower ~ Open book (blog)

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Re: Do enlightened people experience kamma vipaka

Postby kirk5a » Fri Mar 08, 2013 5:17 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Kirk,

The SN 35.145 extract on old kamma sounds phenomenlogical in intent (i.e. kaya-sankhara, mano-sankhara), whereas the MN 140 extract on death sounds ontological in intent.

Personally wouldn't use an ontological statement as the basis for affirming or rejecting a phenomenological statement. That's all.

Is there any guidance from the suttas on differentiating between "phenomenological statements" and "ontological statements"?
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

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Re: Do enlightened people experience kamma vipaka

Postby retrofuturist » Fri Mar 08, 2013 5:39 am

Greetings Kirk,

kirk5a wrote:Is there any guidance from the suttas on differentiating between "phenomenological statements" and "ontological statements"?

It's not a classification scheme called out in the suttas, so no.... but we do often see the Buddha reframing certain prevailing concepts (e.g. loka, sabba) from ontological to phenomenological perspectives, so it's not without precedent.

The fact something like "old kamma" is formed (sankhata) suggests to me it is the product of avijja (i.e. a product of dependent origination), and thus phenomenological. I'm not here to argue the point, just to explain how I see it.... you may take it or leave it as you see fit.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


Dharma Wheel (Mahayana / Vajrayana forum) -- Open flower ~ Open book (blog)


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