How are the views of Buddhadasa Bhikkhu regarded?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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Individual
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Re: How are the views of Buddhadasa Bhikkhu regarded?

Post by Individual »

tiltbillings wrote:
clw_uk wrote: I dont deny rebirth, its a view point that i have let go of because of the dukkha thats there
But then you do go on and on and on and on and on to try to prove that your point of view is the truly true correct way to understand the Dhamma. Who are you trying to convince? I
If i denied it and said "there is no rebirth after death" then this is holding a view again
You are still holding a view about rebirth, of which you are trying to convince others by your repeated "argumentation" here.
I think there's plenty of ugliness to go around, Tiltbillings, but one thing I have to add: Of the 62 wrong views of the Brahmajala Sutta, agnostic eel-wriggling (the refusal to take a clear position out of a refusal to admit ignorance) is one of them. And it is mentioned in the context of ascetics who made ambiguous remarks about rebirth & kamma, refusing to either affirm or deny them. Is that what's going on here? I can't say, but it's something worth considering. Not clinging to views doesn't equate with not putting forth any views at all: the latter is the definition of eel-wriggling. And when you think about it, if you can't say there is rebirth or isn't, or what rebirth is like or isn't like, then you don't really know anything about rebirth. Eel-wriggling agnosticism is meant to hide this.

And also, if any view of rebirth at all is dukkha (a view I'd say is extreme), how is it skillful to discuss rebirth in a thread such as this?
The best things in life aren't things.

The Diamond Sutra
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tiltbillings
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Re: How are the views of Buddhadasa Bhikkhu regarded?

Post by tiltbillings »

clw_uk wrote:I dont have a view of rebirth or no rebirth, for myself personally i let that go,
Sure.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Ceisiwr
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Re: How are the views of Buddhadasa Bhikkhu regarded?

Post by Ceisiwr »

Individual

I think there's plenty of ugliness to go around, Tiltbillings, but one thing I have to add: Of the 62 wrong views of the Brahmajala Sutta, agnostic eel-wriggling (the refusal to take a clear position out of a refusal to admit ignorance) is one of them. And it is mentioned in the context of ascetics who made ambiguous remarks about rebirth & kamma, refusing to either affirm or deny them. Is that what's going on here? I can't say, but it's something worth considering. Not clinging to views doesn't equate with not putting forth any views at all: the latter is the definition of eel-wriggling. And when you think about it, if you can't say there is rebirth or isn't, or what rebirth is like or isn't like, then you don't really know anything about rebirth. Eel-wriggling agnosticism is meant to hide this

So by this understanding this follwing passage is "eel wriggling"


Because entrenchments1 in views
aren't easily overcome

when considering what's grasped
among doctrines,
that's why
a person embraces or rejects a doctrine —
in light of these very
entrenchments.

Now, one who is cleansed2
has no preconceived view
about states of becoming
or not-
anywhere in the world.

Having abandoned conceit3 & illusion,
by what means would he go?4
He isn't involved.

For one who's involved
gets into disputes
over doctrines,
but how — in connection with what — 5
would you argue
with one uninvolved?
He has nothing
embraced or rejected,6
has sloughed off every view
right here — every one
.


http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


and the practice of leaving behind views is eel wriggling so this sutta is wrong practice

"Monks, with the abandoning & destruction of the seven obsessions, the holy life is fulfilled. Which seven? The obsession of sensual passion, the obsession of resistance, the obsession of views, the obsession of uncertainty, the obsession of conceit, the obsession of passion for becoming, the obsession of ignorance. With the abandoning & destruction of these seven obsessions, the holy life is fulfilled.

"When, for a monk, the obsession of sensual passion has been abandoned, its root destroyed, made like a palmyra stump, deprived of the conditions of development, not destined for future arising; when, for him, the obsession of resistance... the obsession of views... the obsession of uncertainty... the obsession of conceit... the obsession of passion for becoming... the obsession of ignorance has been abandoned, its root destroyed, made like a palmyra stump, deprived of the conditions of development, not destined for future arising: this is called a monk who has cut through craving, has turned away from the fetter, and — by rightly breaking through conceit — has put an end to suffering & stress."


and this sutta

Monks, there are these seven obsessions.1 Which seven?

"(1) The obsession of sensual passion.

"(2) The obsession of resistance.

"(3) The obsession of views.

"(4) The obsession of uncertainty.

"(5) The obsession of conceit.

"(6) The obsession of passion for becoming.

"(7) The obsession of ignorance.

"These are the seven obsessions."


the "eel wriggler" position is one that from the outset doesnt take a view about anything at all and gets paralyzed


The Buddha taught views yes, he taught views that are wholesome and leads to wholesome states however he also taught that the teachings are like a raft, so even the views must be left behind


As i understand it views are to be used and then let go of


In relation to myself i dont "eel wriggle" to deny ignorance. There are views here and there is still ignorance here, however (as i understand it) one should work to progressively let go of the grip on views one by one, same with clinging to anything else


metta
Last edited by Ceisiwr on Sun Jul 12, 2009 12:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
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tiltbillings
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Re: How are the views of Buddhadasa Bhikkhu regarded?

Post by tiltbillings »

clw_uk wrote:]


So by this understanding this follwing passage is "eel wriggling"


Because entrenchments1 in views
aren't easily overcome

when considering what's grasped
among doctrines,
that's why
a person embraces or rejects a doctrine —
in light of these very
entrenchments.

Now, one who is cleansed2
has no preconceived view
about states of becoming
or not-
anywhere in the world.

Having abandoned conceit3 & illusion,
by what means would he go?4
He isn't involved.

For one who's involved
gets into disputes
over doctrines,
but how — in connection with what — 5
would you argue
with one uninvolved?
He has nothing
embraced or rejected,6
has sloughed off every view
right here — every one
.
So, you are now publicly claiming at least being of streamwinner status?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Ceisiwr
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Re: How are the views of Buddhadasa Bhikkhu regarded?

Post by Ceisiwr »

No :jumping:


I was showing that having no views is the final goal and is part of the path and not "eel wriggling"


as i said i still have some views

However Dhamma is a gradual process of letting go bit by bit, including views one by one


metta
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
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tiltbillings
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Re: How are the views of Buddhadasa Bhikkhu regarded?

Post by tiltbillings »

clw_uk wrote:No :jumping:


I was showing that having no views is the final goal and is part of the path and not "eel wriggling"


as i said i still have some views


metta
Some? About rebirth? Oh, yeah.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Individual
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Re: How are the views of Buddhadasa Bhikkhu regarded?

Post by Individual »

clw_uk wrote: I was showing that having no views is the final goal and is part of the path and not "eel wriggling"


as i said i still have some views
What about Noble Right View?
The best things in life aren't things.

The Diamond Sutra
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Ceisiwr
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Re: How are the views of Buddhadasa Bhikkhu regarded?

Post by Ceisiwr »

tiltbillings wrote:
clw_uk wrote:No :jumping:


I was showing that having no views is the final goal and is part of the path and not "eel wriggling"


as i said i still have some views


metta
Some? About rebirth? Oh, yeah.

Can you read my mind tilt?


To say there is rebirth is a view

To say there isnt is the same

i do neither

metta
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
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Ceisiwr
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Re: How are the views of Buddhadasa Bhikkhu regarded?

Post by Ceisiwr »

I was showing that having no views is the final goal and is part of the path and not "eel wriggling"


as i said i still have some views
What about Noble Right View?

Until nibbana is reached this is essential
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
PaulC
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Re: How are the views of Buddhadasa Bhikkhu regarded?

Post by PaulC »

As someone who was recently embroiled in an interminable rebirth thread on another board, I can relate to this:
I dont deny rebirth, its a view point that i have let go of because of the dukkha thats there

If i denied it and said "there is no rebirth after death" then this is holding a view again

Buddhas way, as i understand it, goes beyond all views, opinions and standpoints
Though, in my case, it's rather a view that I'm trying to let go of.

Then again, the whole thing is trying.

:)
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tiltbillings
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Re: How are the views of Buddhadasa Bhikkhu regarded?

Post by tiltbillings »

clw_uk wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
clw_uk wrote:No :jumping:


I was showing that having no views is the final goal and is part of the path and not "eel wriggling"


as i said i still have some views


metta
Some? About rebirth? Oh, yeah.

Can you read my mind tilt?
Your mind become mainfest by your actions.

To say there is rebirth is a view

To say there isnt is the same

i do neither
He said, having a view.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Ceisiwr
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Re: How are the views of Buddhadasa Bhikkhu regarded?

Post by Ceisiwr »

Hey tilt


So by your definition having no view is having a view


wouldnt that mean that this person being described here has a view then

Because entrenchments1 in views
aren't easily overcome
when considering what's grasped
among doctrines,
that's why
a person embraces or rejects a doctrine —
in light of these very
entrenchments.

Now, one who is cleansed2
has no preconceived view
about states of becoming
or not-
anywhere in the world.
Having abandoned conceit3 & illusion,
by what means would he go?4
He isn't involved.

For one who's involved
gets into disputes
over doctrines,
but how — in connection with what — 5
would you argue
with one uninvolved?
He has nothing
embraced or rejected,6
has sloughed off every view
right here — every one.



a person embraces or rejects a doctrine —
in light of these very
entrenchments.
I dont reject or embrace rebirth
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
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tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: How are the views of Buddhadasa Bhikkhu regarded?

Post by tiltbillings »

clw_uk wrote:Hey tilt


So by your definition having no view is having a view

Can't let it go, can you?
wouldnt that mean that this person being described here has a view then

Because entrenchments1 in views
aren't easily overcome
when considering what's grasped
among doctrines,
that's why
a person embraces or rejects a doctrine —
in light of these very
entrenchments.

Now, one who is cleansed2
has no preconceived view
about states of becoming
or not-
anywhere in the world.
Having abandoned conceit3 & illusion,
by what means would he go?4
He isn't involved.

For one who's involved
gets into disputes
over doctrines,
but how — in connection with what — 5
would you argue
with one uninvolved?
He has nothing
embraced or rejected,6
has sloughed off every view
right here — every one.
That person is ariya. Are you?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Ceisiwr
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Re: How are the views of Buddhadasa Bhikkhu regarded?

Post by Ceisiwr »

Hey

Can't let it go, can you?
So i shouldnt respond to a post?

That person is ariya. Are you?
Your missing the point, you said (or implied anyway) that having no view about something means one has a view


The one being discussed in the passage has no view of anything, so by your own definition he/she has a kind of view (and hence still clings)


metta
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
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Ceisiwr
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Location: Wales

Re: How are the views of Buddhadasa Bhikkhu regarded?

Post by Ceisiwr »

Unless you meant that i still have a view, not about rebirth, but about self since i posted

I do neither


Did i misunderstand your post?


metta
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
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