Interdependence

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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Hoja
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Re: Interdependence

Post by Hoja »

Macavity wrote: It seems to me that the time we spend thinking about these things is at best time wasted ... time spent in a way that is not conducive to progress in the Dhamma. But of course this would be equally true of countless other pointless activities that most of us indulge in. So I don't want to single out speculating on jewel nets of Indra as being somehow worse than other kinds of proliferation and self-indulgence.

But if when thinking about jewel nets of Indra and so on, we imagine that we are NOT in fact wasting our time, and that such thinking is important and has some kind of vital connection with the Dhamma, then there is something wrong with it, for we are not only wasting our time but also nurturing the wrong view that an unprofitable course of activity is in fact profitable.

Sadly, for the most part this is exactly what the admirers of the Avatamsaka Sutra and Hua Yen philosophy are usually doing. They really do believe that these lush and phantasmagorical texts have some vital connection with the Buddha's Dhamma.
I would not dismiss Hua Yen teachings as self-indulging or a waste of time.
You can't agree with those teachings and that's perfectly fine, but denying its connection with Buddha's Dhamma seems to me a bit unrespectfull.
Individual
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Re: Interdependence

Post by Individual »

Macavity wrote:
Individual wrote:But dukkha has a very broad foundation: craving and birth.
Don't you mean ignorance and craving? Birth is normally treated as part of the fact of dukkha (the first noble truth), not the cause of dukkha.
Ignorance, craving, and birth are all connected. Each of them condition eachother. Birth is a fact of dukkha, which also conditions further dukkha. It is because of craving and ignorance that people are born, thus craving conditions suffering, but birth is the context in which suffering occurs, and suffering cannot occur without it.
Macavity wrote:
In teaching dukkha, he taught ultimate reality and the mechanism by which the world changes.
And that 'world', along with its arising, its ceasing, and the path to its ceasing, are all included in this fathom-long body. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

So no call to go concerning ourselves with all dhammas everywhere, or butterfly effects, or jewel nets of Indra etc.
From the sutta you cited:
It's not to be reached by traveling, the end of the cosmos — regardless. And it's not without reaching the end of the cosmos that there is release from suffering & stress.

So, truly, the wise one, an expert with regard to the cosmos, a knower of the end of the cosmos, having fulfilled the holy life, calmed, knowing the cosmos' end, doesn't long for this cosmos or for any other.
Not longing for the end of the cosmos, but knowing it.
The best things in life aren't things.

The Diamond Sutra
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Macavity
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Re: Interdependence

Post by Macavity »

Individual wrote:Ignorance, craving, and birth are all connected. Each of them condition eachother. Birth is a fact of dukkha, which also conditions further dukkha. It is because of craving and ignorance that people are born, thus craving conditions suffering, but birth is the context in which suffering occurs, and suffering cannot occur without it.
When you previously wrote of birth being the 'foundation' of dukkha I took the word 'foundation' to mean the cause or condition of dukkha, and so having to do with the second truth rather than the first. You are right of course that in paticcasamuppada, with birth as condition there comes ageing, sickness and death. But when the 12-fold paticcasamuppada is mapped onto the four noble truths, the convention is to treat birth as part of the truth of dukkha, and ignorance and craving as the truth of origin.
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Macavity
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Re: Interdependence

Post by Macavity »

christopher::: wrote:And you make this powerful assessment based on..... ?
I don't know which part of my post you are calling a 'powerful assessment', but its content as a whole is based on my understanding of the Dhamma as it is found in Theravada texts, and then my understanding of Hua Yen philosophy as it is found in the scholarly works of Garma Chang, Francis Cook, Thomas Cleary and Paul Williams, and then in the more popular presentations of Thich Nhat Hanh, Robert Aitken and other western Zen teachers.
There is no one single way to teach or practice the dhamma, is there?
As Theravada Buddhism is an exclusivist teaching, and not at all a universalist or a relativist one, I don't see how its followers could accept your statement without some important qualifications. In the Dhammapada the Buddha says:

"Of all the paths the Eightfold Path is the best; of all the truths the Four Noble Truths are the best; of all things passionlessness is the best: of men the Seeing One (the Buddha) is the best.
"This is the only path; there is none other for the purification of insight. Tread this path, and you will bewilder Mara.
"Walking upon this path you will make an end of suffering. Having discovered how to pull out the thorn of lust, I make known the path."
(Dhp. 273-5)

Of course this still leaves open the possibility that there may be more than one way to develop the eightfold path. Does Theravada teaching allow for this or is there just a single way to develop the path? If we go by the suttas I think it depends on which factors of the path we are considering.

Right view: insight into the four noble truths is basically the same for everyone, with variations limited to whether the first truth is taught in terms of dukkha or with something else substituted ('nutriment', for instance, as in the Sammaditthi Sutta).

Right thought: the three right thoughts are the same for everyone.

Right, speech, right action and right livelihood: of variable content according to a person's status as a householder or a monastic.

Right effort: the four right endeavours are the same for everyone.

Right mindfulness and concentration: of variable content according to what sort of practice suits a person's character type, as conditioned by his or her past kamma.

So I would say that there are some permissible variations in how the eightfold path might be developed by different persons, but these variations are not unlimited, and none of them involve making noble right view into something other than discernment of the four noble truths. And there's the rub, for the Theravada/Hua Yen differences mostly do concern right view.
Kind regards,
Ciarán
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Macavity
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Re: Interdependence

Post by Macavity »

Tantrayogi wrote:I would not dismiss Hua Yen teachings as self-indulging or a waste of time.
You can't agree with those teachings and that's perfectly fine, but denying its connection with Buddha's Dhamma seems to me a bit unrespectfull.
In your opening post you asked, "What is the Theravadin view about [Hua Yen]? Is it just another way to express the paticcasamuppāda doctrine?"

If confirmation of your present view is all that you were really looking for, then you should have added, "Please make sure that your answer is 'yes', or I will judge your post disrespectful."
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christopher:::
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Re: Interdependence

Post by christopher::: »

Hi Macavity,

My question was in response to this...
Macavity wrote:
...As for Thich Nhat Hanh, he is a fine example of a Buddhist teacher whose enthusiasm for Hua Yen has resulted in him completely losing the plot. His (and his disciples) obsession with Hua Yen ideas of interpenetration, interconnectedness and so on have led them to prioritize other things than what the Dhamma is centrally concerned with. For example, environmentalism, social activism, and the energetic popularization of Thich Nhat Hanh's crypto-Spinozoan pantheist ideology. But efforts aimed at the purification of mind and liberation from dukkha become only a secondary or tertiary concern. And so to this extent it seems to me that they have gone astray from the teachings of the man who said: "Both formerly, bhikkhus, and now, it is just dukkha that I teach, and the cessation of dukkha."

Far from making dukkha and its cessation his central concern, Thich Nhat Hanh goes out of his way to sever them from the Buddha's teaching, for example by claiming that dukkha is not one of the three common characteristics of conditioned dhammas.
Not that Thich Nhat Hanh is the perfect teacher, or that some of the above may not be true, but he does teach the Buddha's dharma- the 4 noble truths, the 8 fold path, the 12 links of dependent origination, etc. He talks about interdependence and inter-being within that larger context, as an aspect of what Buddha taught. He emphasizes engaged Buddhism as a part of one's practice, as a form of right action, not as something which has nothing to do with the dhamma.

This may not be evident if one bases their assessment of TNH upon a few internet articles or one of his popular books. That's why i mentioned what is probably one of his most important books Heart of the Buddha's Teaching, a nitty-gritty presentation of the Buddha's core dhamma teachings, in other words the basics as covered in Theravadin Buddhism.

Everything is interconnected. Staying aware of interdependence helps us to see these connections.

:group:
Last edited by christopher::: on Sun Jul 12, 2009 3:40 am, edited 2 times in total.
"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009
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appicchato
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Re: Interdependence

Post by appicchato »

Macavity wrote:...I will judge...
Not a good idea...
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Macavity
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Re: Interdependence

Post by Macavity »

appicchato wrote:
Macavity wrote:...I will judge...
Not a good idea...
Ajahn,

I think you have misunderstood my statement, perhaps by overlooking the punctuation in it. Certainly your manner of quoting me misrepresents what I wrote.

The 'I' in the "I will judge" phrase does not stand for "I, Macavity." It stands for "I, Tantrayogi" and is part of my suggestion of what Tantrayogi ought to have written to make the motive of his first post more transparent.
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Re: Interdependence

Post by appicchato »

Macavity wrote:...your manner of quoting me misrepresents what I wrote.
.
Sorry...I wouldn't intentionally do that...I should have taken your name off of the quote...
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Hoja
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Re: Interdependence

Post by Hoja »

Macavity wrote: If confirmation of your present view is all that you were really looking for, then you should have added, "Please make sure that your answer is 'yes', or I will judge your post disrespectful."
I don't find any criticism disrespectful if it's done in a respectful way.
I've found your first reply interesting, respectful and thought provoking.
It was the post that I've quoted, where you dismiss texts as lush and phantasmagorical and the Hua Yen beliefs as a waste of time, what I've found disrespectful.
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Macavity
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Re: Interdependence

Post by Macavity »

Tantrayogi wrote:I don't find any criticism disrespectful if it's done in a respectful way.
So what do you think of the Buddha respectfully criticizing Makkhali Gosala by comparing him to a fishtrap? Or Dharmakirti respectfully comparing his opponents to various despised fauna?
It was the post that I've quoted, where you dismiss texts as lush and phantasmagorical
Have you ever read the Avatamsaka Sutra? If you have, then what adjectives would you choose to describe its content and presentation? Would you say, for instance, that the sutra was of unadorned rustic simplicity? If you haven't read it, then I offer you Cleary's translation of the sutra's opening so you can judge for yourself the aptness of "lush and phantasmagorical."


  • THUS HAVE I HEARD. At one time the Buddha was in the land of Magadha, in a state of purity, at the site of enlightenment, having just realized true awareness. The ground was solid and firm, made of diamond, adorned with exquisite jewel disks and myriad precious flowers, with pure clear crystals. The ocean of characteristics of the various colors appeared over an infinite extent. There were banners of precious stones, constantly emitting shining light and producing beautiful sounds. Nets of myriad gems and garlands of exquisitely scented flowers hung all around. The finest jewels appeared spontaneously, raining inexhaustible quantities of gems and beautiful flowers all over the earth. There were rows of jewel trees, their branches and foliage lustrous and luxuriant. By the Buddha's spiritual power, he caused all the adornments of this enlightenment site to be reflected therein.

    The tree of enlightenment was tall and outstanding. Its trunk was diamond, its main boughs were lapiz lazuli, its branches and twigs were of various precious elements. The leaves, spreading in all directions, provided shade, like clouds. The precious blossoms were of various colors, the branching twigs spread out their shadows. Also the fruits were jewels containing a blazing radiance. They were together with the flowers in great arrays. The entire circumference of the tree emanated light; within the light there rained precious stones, and within each gem were enlightening beings (Bodhisattva), in great hosts like clouds, simultaneously appearing.

    Also, by virtue of the awesome spiritual power of the Buddha, the tree of enlightenment constantly gave forth sublime sounds speaking various truths without end.

    The palace chamber in which the Buddha was situated was spacious and beautifully adorned. It extended throughout the ten directions. It was made of jewels of various colors and was decorated with all kinds of precious flowers. The various adornments emanated lights like clouds; the masses of their reflections from within the palace formed banners.

    A boundless host of enlightening beings, the congregation at the site of enlightenment, were all gathered there: by means of the ability to manifest the lights and inconceivable sounds of the Buddhas, they fashioned nets of the finest jewels, from which came forth all the realms of action of the spiritual powers of the Buddhas, and in which were reflected images of the abodes of all beings.

    Also, by virtue of the aid of the spiritual power of the Buddhas, they embraced the entire cosmos in a single thought.

    Their lion seats were high, wide, and beautiful. The bases were made of jewels, their nets of lotus blossoms, their tableaus of pure, exquisite gemstones. They were adorned with various flowers of all colors. Their roofs, chambers, steps, and doors were adorned by the images of all things. The branches and fruits of jewel trees surrounded them, arrayed at intervals.

    Clouds of radiance of jewels reflected each other; the Buddhas of the ten directions conjured regal pearls, and exquisite jewels in the topknots of all the enlightening beings all emanated light, which came and illuminated them.

    Furthermore, sustained by the spiritual powers of the Buddhas, they expounded the vast perspective of the Thus Come Ones (Tathagata) , their subtle tones extending afar, there being no place they did not reach.

    At that time, the World Honored One (Bhagavan), in this setting, attained the supreme, correct awareness of all things. His wisdom entered into all the three times(*) with complete equality; his body filled all worlds; his voice universally accorded with all lands in the ten directions. Like space, which contains all forms, he made no discrimination among all objects. And, as space extends everywhere, he entered all worlds equally. His body forever sat omnipresent in all sites of enlightenment. Among the hosts of enlightening beings, his awesome light shone clearly, like the sun emerging, illumining the world. The ocean of myriad virtues which he practiced in all times was thoroughly pure, and he constantly demonstrated the production of all the buddha-lands, their boundless forms and spheres of light extending throughout the entire cosmos (Dharma-Realm), equally and impartially.
Kind regards,
Ciarán
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Hoja
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Re: Interdependence

Post by Hoja »

Macavity wrote:Have you ever read the Avatamsaka Sutra?

I'm reading Cleary's translation, slowly, as it's quite an intricate read for my non-native english.
The sutra opening is, well, a dharmic version of Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds :-)
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Macavity
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Re: Interdependence

Post by Macavity »

Tantrayogi wrote:The sutra opening is, well, a dharmic version of Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds :-)
:smile:
And so also for about three quarters of the rest of the sutra. And that was my point:

The Hua-Yen/Avatamsaka Sutra teaching is what you get if you take the Buddha's paticcasamuppada teaching and then indulge in an overdose of conceptual proliferation (or maybe mescaline).

So we are in agreement here. :toast:

Or at least in partial agreement; maybe we differ on the question of whether texts that read like hallucinogen-inspired poetry are an apt vehicle for the Dhamma. Does it occur to you that works like the Avatamsaka (and other later stratum Mahayana sutras) could be seen as symptomatic of monks falling into the very malpractice that the Buddha warned would bring about the decline of his teaching: the habit of preferring to listen to the highly embellished compositions of poets rather than the Tathagata's own discourses?

Kind regards,
Ciarán
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Hoja
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Re: Interdependence

Post by Hoja »

Macavity wrote:the habit of preferring to listen to the highly embellished compositions of poets rather than the Tathagata's own discourses?
True, if you consider the Mahayana Sutras as poetry rather than the Buddha's teachings.
But that's the reason that drove me to Theravada: even considering the Mahayana Sutras as authentic teachings I think that first I want to know the teachings from the earlier buddhism.

:toast:
Sláinte!

Hernán
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Macavity
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Re: Interdependence

Post by Macavity »

¡Salud! :toast:
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