Ajahn Brahm for sale?

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Re: Ajahn Brahm for sale?

Postby Gena1480 » Mon Mar 11, 2013 6:42 pm

does Ajahn Brahm consent his actions with the Sangha
or he makes decision himself?
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Re: Ajahn Brahm for sale?

Postby mikenz66 » Mon Mar 11, 2013 6:52 pm

Can someone explain exactly what their objection to this is? Does it contravene some obscure rule in the Vinaya?

I don't see any logical difference from any Dhamma presentation, where teachings and dana is given freely, but perhaps I'm overlooking something.

:anjali:
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Re: Ajahn Brahm for sale?

Postby LonesomeYogurt » Mon Mar 11, 2013 6:57 pm

According to AN 5.177, the selling of human beings is wrong livelihood!

:jumping:
Gain and loss, status and disgrace,
censure and praise, pleasure and pain:
these conditions among human beings are inconstant,
impermanent, subject to change.

Knowing this, the wise person, mindful,
ponders these changing conditions.
Desirable things don’t charm the mind,
undesirable ones bring no resistance.

His welcoming and rebelling are scattered,
gone to their end,
do not exist.
- Lokavipatti Sutta

Stuff I write about things.
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Re: Ajahn Brahm for sale?

Postby mikenz66 » Mon Mar 11, 2013 6:57 pm

"May Master Gotama, together with the community of monks, acquiesce to my offer of tomorrow's meal."

The Blessed One acquiesced with silence.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

:anjali:
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Re: Ajahn Brahm for sale?

Postby Cittasanto » Mon Mar 11, 2013 7:02 pm

mikenz66 wrote:Can someone explain exactly what their objection to this is? Does it contravene some obscure rule in the Vinaya?

I don't see any logical difference from any Dhamma presentation, where teachings and dana is given freely, but perhaps I'm overlooking something.

:anjali:
Mike

nothing obscure, and can be found easily.
SN 42.10 Maniculaka Sutta: To Maniculaka wrote:"Now I do say that thatch may be sought for by one needing thatch, wood may be sought for by one needing wood, a cart may be sought for by one needing a cart, a workman may be sought for by one needing a workman, but by no means do I say that money may be consented to or sought for in any way at all."


Nissaggiya Pācittiya: Rules entailing forfeiture and confession wrote:18. Should any bhikkhu accept gold and silver, or have it accepted, or consent to its being deposited (near him), it is to be forfeited and confessed.

19. Should any bhikkhu engage in various types of monetary exchange, it (the income) is to be forfeited and confessed.

20. Should any bhikkhu engage in various types of trade, it (the article obtained) is to be forfeited and confessed.

he is trading himself for money to build.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
With Metta
Upāsaka Cittasanto
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: Ajahn Brahm for sale?

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Mar 11, 2013 7:06 pm

Cittasanto wrote:he is trading himself for money to build.
Does he benefit from this, does he line his pockets, get a big fancy car, better food, silk robes, a nicer place to live?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Ajahn Brahm for sale?

Postby Mr Man » Mon Mar 11, 2013 7:15 pm

mikenz66 wrote:Can someone explain exactly what their objection to this is? Does it contravene some obscure rule in the Vinaya?

I don't see any logical difference from any Dhamma presentation, where teachings and dana is given freely, but perhaps I'm overlooking something.



Hi Mike
My objection is that it degrades the symbolism of the mendicant. I also think it trivializes and is overly out of step with the tradition.
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Re: Ajahn Brahm for sale?

Postby Cittasanto » Mon Mar 11, 2013 7:23 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
Cittasanto wrote:he is trading himself for money to build.
Does he benefit from this, does he line his pockets, get a big fancy car, better food, silk robes, a nicer place to live?

I will point you too the first quote.
it does not matter if he is benefitting in that way. he is allowing and being part of making himself a commodity in trade that is inappropriate.

Ud3.8 pinda sutta wrote:The monk going for alms,
supporting himself and no other:
The devas adore one who is Such
if he's not intent
on fame & praise.


DN2 wrote:"So after some time he abandons his mass of wealth, large or small; leaves his circle of relatives, large or small; shaves off his hair and beard, puts on the ochre robes, and goes forth from the household life into homelessness. Having thus gone forth he lives restrained in body, speech, and mind, content with the simplest food and shelter, delighting in solitude. Then suppose one of your men were to inform you: 'You should know, your majesty, that that man of yours — the farmer, the householder, the taxpayer swelling the royal treasury... has gone forth from the household life into homelessness... content with the simplest food and shelter, delighting in solitude.' Would you, thus informed, say, 'Bring that man back to me. Make him again be a farmer, a householder, a taxpayer swelling the royal treasury!'?"
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
With Metta
Upāsaka Cittasanto
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: Ajahn Brahm for sale?

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Mar 11, 2013 7:25 pm

Cittasanto wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
Cittasanto wrote:he is trading himself for money to build.
Does he benefit from this, does he line his pockets, get a big fancy car, better food, silk robes, a nicer place to live?

I will point you too the first quote.
it does not matter if he is benefitting in that way. he is allowing and being part of making himself a commodity in trade that is inappropriate.
Naughty Ajahn Brahm. Literalist Cittasanto.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Ajahn Brahm for sale?

Postby Bhikkhu Pesala » Mon Mar 11, 2013 7:30 pm

AIM WebsitePāli FontsIn This Very LifeBuddhist ChroniclesSoftware (Upasampadā: 24th June, 1979)
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Re: Ajahn Brahm for sale?

Postby manas » Mon Mar 11, 2013 8:15 pm

Sorry, on second thoughts, I thought it best to extinguish this post...this topic is a bit of a minefield, I will leave it to others more learned than I to comment

metta
Last edited by manas on Mon Mar 11, 2013 8:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ajahn Brahm for sale?

Postby marc108 » Mon Mar 11, 2013 8:26 pm

Are we all Vinaya experts? Has Ajahn Brahm broken any rules? Didn't Ajahm Brahm do the first make English translation of the Vinaya? My personal opinion is that he's likely done this because te nunnery is hurting for funds, and its not like hes taking the money or himself or his own monastery. Ajahn Brahm works tirelessly and gives of himself with complete generosity... He's done more to further the Dhamma than any of us could ever hope to. Not to mention he is a senior monk of 40 years. We may not personally like the 'auction' but to criticize him or cast sweeping judgements when none of us know the circumstances is IMO, unwise. 'Nit-picking' at its worst.
Last edited by marc108 on Mon Mar 11, 2013 8:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ajahn Brahm for sale?

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Mar 11, 2013 8:27 pm

marc108 wrote:Are we all Vinaya experts? Has Ajahn Brahm broken any rules? Didn't Ajahm Brahm do the first make English translation of the Vinaya? My personal opinion is that he's likely done this because te nunnery is hurtingl for funds. Ajahn Brahm works tirelessly and gives of himself with complete generosity... He's done more to further the Dhamma than any of us could ever hope to. Not to mention he is a senior monk of 40 years. We may not personally like the 'auction' but to criticize him or cast sweeping judgements when none of us know the circumstances is IMO, unwise. 'Nit-picking' at its worst.
Indeed.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Ajahn Brahm for sale?

Postby Gena1480 » Mon Mar 11, 2013 8:31 pm

who am i to judge someone else actions
i'm not the owner of his actions
i'm the owner of my actions.
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Re: Ajahn Brahm for sale?

Postby Dan74 » Mon Mar 11, 2013 8:36 pm

I thought this was quite common practice anyway, in that monks would spend time with the largest benefactors.
_/|\_
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Re: Ajahn Brahm for sale?

Postby Mr Man » Mon Mar 11, 2013 8:38 pm

marc108 wrote:Are we all Vinaya experts? Has Ajahn Brahm broken any rules? Didn't Ajahm Brahm do the first make English translation of the Vinaya? My personal opinion is that he's likely done this because te nunnery is hurting for funds, and its not like hes taking the money or himself or his own monastery. Ajahn Brahm works tirelessly and gives of himself with complete generosity... He's done more to further the Dhamma than any of us could ever hope to.
In my opinion that is all totally irrelevant and sounds awfully like righteous indignation. Maybe he has made a bad decision or been badly advised? Who knows?
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Re: Ajahn Brahm for sale?

Postby santa100 » Mon Mar 11, 2013 8:41 pm

Of course we don't doubt Ven. Brahm's good intention. But shouldn't it be more appropriate to let the lay staff handle this matter? If he does this, it'll open up some awkward situations, for example some poor folks who's deserved to see the venerable more but they aren't able to because they lost the "bidding war" to their neighbor who has a lot more money. The rich folks could easily win the "auction" and thus win the venerable's time thru the size of their pocket, not their virtue. Worst of, they might not even need the venerable there at their home for they might only care about a good story of having a world renowned teacher actually staying at their home! It wouldn't seem fair to the poorer folks..
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Re: Ajahn Brahm for sale?

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Mar 11, 2013 9:04 pm

santa100 wrote:Of course we don't doubt Ven. Brahm's good intention. But shouldn't it be more appropriate to let the lay staff handle this matter? If he does this, it'll open up some awkward situations, for example some poor folks who's deserved to see the venerable more but they aren't able to because they lost the "bidding war" to their neighbor who has a lot more money. The rich folks could easily win the "auction" and thus win the venerable's time thru the size of their pocket, not their virtue. Worst of, they might not even need the venerable there at their home for they might only care about a good story of having a world renowned teacher actually staying at their home! It wouldn't seem fair to the poorer folks..
What if Ven B goes to England to lead a month long retreat? All those poor people in Oz are left in the lurch for over a month.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Ajahn Brahm for sale?

Postby santa100 » Mon Mar 11, 2013 9:07 pm

At least they know they couldn't see him not because they lost the bidding war to some rich folks..
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Re: Ajahn Brahm for sale?

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Mar 11, 2013 9:09 pm

santa100 wrote:At least they know they couldn't see him not because they lost the bidding war to some rich folks..
Well, then they have something of interest inside themselves to consider.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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