Ajahn Brahm for sale?

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Re: Ajahn Brahm for sale?

Postby Gena1480 » Mon Mar 11, 2013 10:20 pm

we forgot the basics
i take refuge in Sangha
i pay homage to Venerable Ajahn Brahm
he is worthy of gifts.
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Re: Ajahn Brahm for sale?

Postby Mr Man » Mon Mar 11, 2013 10:29 pm

marc108 wrote:we look at a website and explode in anger and judgement?
Hyperbole?
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Re: Ajahn Brahm for sale?

Postby marc108 » Mon Mar 11, 2013 10:31 pm

Mr Man wrote:
marc108 wrote:we look at a website and explode in anger and judgement?
Hyperbole?


i hope so lol Image
"It's easy for us to connect with what's wrong with us... and not so easy to feel into, or to allow us, to connect with what's right and what's good in us."
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Re: Ajahn Brahm for sale?

Postby Mr Man » Mon Mar 11, 2013 10:36 pm

marc108 wrote:
Mr Man wrote:
marc108 wrote:we look at a website and explode in anger and judgement?
Hyperbole?


i hope so lol Image

:D
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Re: Ajahn Brahm for sale?

Postby Cittasanto » Mon Mar 11, 2013 11:21 pm

Billymac29 wrote:I dont see much difference between this and paying for a meditation retreat at a monastery... Many monasteries have dana bowls or collectors where the money goes to help support the monastery... The lay people in the community usually handle the money that deal with monetary needs of the monastery.. Monasteries offer dhamma talks, meditation instruction, and question and answer with teacher...

Don't see the difference and why this is such a big deal for people. Although the title "Ajahn Brahm for Sale" leaves much to be desired..

may all be well
:anjali:

the difference is, the money goes to the monastery or retreat for the monastery or the retreat for nothing in return you give because you want to not because you are expected too. you could go to a retreat (as some do) and pay nothing. yet here you are getting a trade, a person for 7 day for your money, all at a nominal participation fee of $450.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
With Metta
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Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: Ajahn Brahm for sale?

Postby Dan74 » Mon Mar 11, 2013 11:46 pm

One reason I wouldn't want to ordain as a Theravada monk is the attitude of the lay - pampered on one hand and constantly judged on the other...

Didn't the Buddha stay at his benefactor's places (palaces)? Didn't Ajahn Chah regularly receive his wealthy patrons?

I think rather than judging Ajahn Brahm, it would be far more beneficial to put this judgmental mind under scrutiny. Or at least pause, take a breath and examine.
_/|\_
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Re: Ajahn Brahm for sale?

Postby marc108 » Mon Mar 11, 2013 11:51 pm

Dan74 wrote:I think rather than judging Ajahn Brahm, it would be far more beneficial to put this judgmental mind under scrutiny.


:anjali:
"It's easy for us to connect with what's wrong with us... and not so easy to feel into, or to allow us, to connect with what's right and what's good in us."
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Re: Ajahn Brahm for sale?

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Mar 11, 2013 11:52 pm

Cittasanto wrote:
Billymac29 wrote:I dont see much difference between this and paying for a meditation retreat at a monastery... Many monasteries have dana bowls or collectors where the money goes to help support the monastery... The lay people in the community usually handle the money that deal with monetary needs of the monastery.. Monasteries offer dhamma talks, meditation instruction, and question and answer with teacher...

Don't see the difference and why this is such a big deal for people. Although the title "Ajahn Brahm for Sale" leaves much to be desired..

may all be well
:anjali:

the difference is, the money goes to the monastery or retreat for the monastery or the retreat for nothing in return you give because you want to not because you are expected too. you could go to a retreat (as some do) and pay nothing. yet here you are getting a trade, a person for 7 day for your money, all at a nominal participation fee of $450.
If you do not like it, do not participate. No one is holding a gun to anyone here -- or there -- demanding that they give, that they participate.

But: Oh, the inhumanity of it all. Naughty Ven B. Shame, shame, shame and more shame, scandlaizing us dour Buddhists with levity. Heavens to betsy, what are we to do? Maybe get over it, let it go, move on, tend to our own business, look within.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.
"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Ajahn Brahm for sale?

Postby Cittasanto » Tue Mar 12, 2013 12:12 am

tiltbillings wrote:
Cittasanto wrote:
Billymac29 wrote:I dont see much difference between this and paying for a meditation retreat at a monastery... Many monasteries have dana bowls or collectors where the money goes to help support the monastery... The lay people in the community usually handle the money that deal with monetary needs of the monastery.. Monasteries offer dhamma talks, meditation instruction, and question and answer with teacher...

Don't see the difference and why this is such a big deal for people. Although the title "Ajahn Brahm for Sale" leaves much to be desired..

may all be well
:anjali:

the difference is, the money goes to the monastery or retreat for the monastery or the retreat for nothing in return you give because you want to not because you are expected too. you could go to a retreat (as some do) and pay nothing. yet here you are getting a trade, a person for 7 day for your money, all at a nominal participation fee of $450.
If you do not like it, do not participate. No one is holding a gun to anyone here -- or there -- demanding that they give, that they participate.

But: Oh, the inhumanity of it all. Naughty Ven B. Shame, shame, shame and more shame, scandlaizing us dour Buddhists with levity. Heavens to betsy, what are we to do? Maybe get over it, let it go, move on, tend to our own business, look within.

and it is a shame you are reading so much into my posts tilt.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
With Metta
Upāsaka Cittasanto
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: Ajahn Brahm for sale?

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Mar 12, 2013 12:18 am

Cittasanto wrote:and it is a shame you are reading so much into my posts tilt.
Actually, your posts is not always that easy to read, and I do my best to read them as they are written. So, then, if I misread your post, what is your point?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.
"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Ajahn Brahm for sale?

Postby Billymac29 » Tue Mar 12, 2013 12:22 am

Cittasanto wrote:
Billymac29 wrote:I dont see much difference between this and paying for a meditation retreat at a monastery... Many monasteries have dana bowls or collectors where the money goes to help support the monastery... The lay people in the community usually handle the money that deal with monetary needs of the monastery.. Monasteries offer dhamma talks, meditation instruction, and question and answer with teacher...

Don't see the difference and why this is such a big deal for people. Although the title "Ajahn Brahm for Sale" leaves much to be desired..

may all be well
:anjali:

the difference is, the money goes to the monastery or retreat for the monastery or the retreat for nothing in return you give because you want to not because you are expected too. you could go to a retreat (as some do) and pay nothing. yet here you are getting a trade, a person for 7 day for your money, all at a nominal participation fee of $450.


This money us going towards the nunnery... Like I said I don't see any difference
"whatever one frequently thinks and ponders upon will be the inclination of one's mind"
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Re: Ajahn Brahm for sale?

Postby Cittasanto » Tue Mar 12, 2013 12:31 am

Billymac29 wrote:
Cittasanto wrote:the difference is, the money goes to the monastery or retreat for the monastery or the retreat for nothing in return you give because you want to not because you are expected too. you could go to a retreat (as some do) and pay nothing. yet here you are getting a trade, a person for 7 day for your money, all at a nominal participation fee of $450.


This money us going towards the nunnery... Like I said I don't see any difference

you missed an important clause which has now been underlined.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
With Metta
Upāsaka Cittasanto
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: Ajahn Brahm for sale?

Postby Billymac29 » Tue Mar 12, 2013 12:44 am

Cittasanto wrote:
Billymac29 wrote:
Cittasanto wrote:the difference is, the money goes to the monastery or retreat for the monastery or the retreat for nothing in return you give because you want to not because you are expected too. you could go to a retreat (as some do) and pay nothing. yet here you are getting a trade, a person for 7 day for your money, all at a nominal participation fee of $450.


This money us going towards the nunnery... Like I said I don't see any difference

you missed an important clause which has now been underlined.



that was not missed.. I understood and still felt the same way.. One need not participate if one chooses not to... One need not "bid" if one does not want to.. You bid because you want to, not because you have to :)

When all is said and done ajahn's dhamma teachings are still available free of charge at his facility and on the web

;)

May all be well
"whatever one frequently thinks and ponders upon will be the inclination of one's mind"
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Re: Ajahn Brahm for sale?

Postby pilgrim » Tue Mar 12, 2013 12:50 am

I can't believe the bunch of sour faced prudes we have here. Ajahn Brahm spends weeks every year teaching and holding retreats at various Buddhist organisations in Singapore, Malaysia, and indonesia, all without charging a single cent. Many of these organisations will collect donations from participants. In this way, some of these organisations raise a little funds to maintain themselves.

Many organisations would love for an opportunity to donate back to Ajahn's monasteries. I see this "Ajahn Brahm for Sale" event as a humorous and innovative way to encourage dana (which is typical of him) and I'm quite sure many organisations would put in their bids, even knowing well they can get him for free in the following week or month.
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Re: Ajahn Brahm for sale?

Postby plwk » Tue Mar 12, 2013 1:29 am

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What is it? It is recollecting the Enlightened One.
If this single thing is recollected and made much,
it invariably leads to weariness, cessation, appeasement, realization and extinction.

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Re: Ajahn Brahm for sale?

Postby Cittasanto » Tue Mar 12, 2013 1:40 am

tiltbillings wrote:
Cittasanto wrote:and it is a shame you are reading so much into my posts tilt.
Actually, your posts is not always that easy to read, and I do my best to read them as they are written. So, then, if I misread your post, what is your point?


well I certainly wasn't saying anything remotely related to this and your opinion of levity, dourness, or clinging.
But: Oh, the inhumanity of it all. Naughty Ven B. Shame, shame, shame and more shame, scandlaizing us dour Buddhists with levity. Heavens to betsy, what are we to do? Maybe get over it, let it go, move on, tend to our own business, look within.

you have accused two people with no ground. but heaven forbid anyone engage with the outside world or have an opinion about it.
lets all find a hole and hide from any expectation of conduct and benefit we gain from our livelihood.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
With Metta
Upāsaka Cittasanto
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: Ajahn Brahm for sale?

Postby Cittasanto » Tue Mar 12, 2013 1:48 am

Billymac29 wrote:that was not missed.. I understood and still felt the same way.. One need not participate if one chooses not to... One need not "bid" if one does not want to.. You bid because you want to, not because you have to :)

When all is said and done ajahn's dhamma teachings are still available free of charge at his facility and on the web

;)

May all be well

and the free availability changes the sale how?
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
With Metta
Upāsaka Cittasanto
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: Ajahn Brahm for sale?

Postby Cittasanto » Tue Mar 12, 2013 1:51 am

pilgrim wrote:I can't believe the bunch of sour faced prudes we have here.

and how does disagreement with him selling himself make one a sour faced prune, dour or whatever?
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
With Metta
Upāsaka Cittasanto
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: Ajahn Brahm for sale?

Postby retrofuturist » Tue Mar 12, 2013 1:52 am

Greetings,

Bhikkhu Pesala's earlier post referenced what Thanissaro Bhikkhu wrote:No Strings Attached

Thanissaro Bhikkhu wrote:The teacher, meanwhile, must make sure not to regard the act of teaching as a repayment of a debt. After all, monks and nuns repay their debt to their lay donors by trying to rid their minds of greed, aversion, and delusion. They are in no way obligated to teach, which means that the act of teaching is a gift free and clear. In addition, the Buddha insisted that the Dhamma be taught without expectation of material reward. When he was once offered a “teacher's fee” for his teaching, he refused to accept it and told the donor to throw it away. He also established the precedent that when a monastic teaches the rewards of generosity, the teaching is given after a gift has been given, not before, so that the stain of hinting won't sully what's said.

All of these principles assume a high level of nobility and restraint on both sides of the equation, which is why people tried to find ways around them even while the Buddha was alive. The origin stories to the monastic discipline — the tales portraying the misbehavior that led the Buddha to formulate rules for the monks and nuns — often tell of monastics whose gift of Dhamma came with strings attached, and of lay people who gladly pulled those strings to get what they wanted out of the monastics: personal favors served with an ingratiating smile. The Buddha's steady persistence in formulating rules to cut these strings shows how determined he was that the principle of Dhamma as a genuinely free gift not be an idle ideal. He wanted it to influence the way people actually behaved.

He never gave an extended explanation of why the act of teaching should always be a gift, but he did state in general terms that when his code of conduct became corrupt over time, that would corrupt the Dhamma as well. And in the case of the etiquette of generosity, this principle has been borne out frequently throughout Buddhist history.

A primary example is recorded in the Apadanas, which scholars believe were added to the Canon after King Asoka's time. The Apadanas discuss the rewards of giving in a way that shows how eager the monks composing them were to receive lavish gifts. They promise that even a small gift will bear fruit as guaranteed arahantship many eons in the future, and that the path from now to then will always be filled with pleasure and prestige. Attainments of special distinction, though, require special donations. Some of these donations bear a symbolic resemblance to the desired distinction — a gift of lighted lamps, for instance, presages clairvoyance — but the preferred gift of distinction was a week's worth of lavish meals for an entire monastery, or at least for the monks who teach.

It's obvious that the monks who composed the Apadanas were giving free rein to their greed, and were eager to tell their listeners what their listeners wanted to hear. The fact that these texts were recorded for posterity shows that the listeners, in fact, were pleased. Thus the teachers and their students, acting in collusion, skewed the culture of dana in the direction of their defilements. In so doing they distorted the Dhamma as well. If gift-giving guarantees Awakening, it supplants the noble eightfold path with the one-fold path of the gift. If the road to Awakening is always prestigious and joyful, the concept of right effort disappears. Yet once these ideas were introduced into the Buddhist tradition, they gained the stamp of authority and have affected Buddhist practice ever since. Throughout Buddhist Asia, people tend to give gifts with an eye to their symbolic promise of future reward; and the list of gifts extolled in the Apadanas reads like a catalog of the gifts placed on altars throughout Buddhist Asia even today.

Which goes to show that once the culture of dana gets distorted, it can distort the practice of Dhamma as a whole for many centuries. So if we're serious about bringing the culture of dana to the West, we should be very careful to ensure that our efforts honor the principles that make dana a genuinely Buddhist practice. This means no longer using the tactics of modern fundraising to encourage generosity among retreatants or Buddhists in general. It also means rethinking the dana talk, for on many counts it fails the test. In pressuring retreatants to give to teachers, it doesn't lead to gladness before giving, and instead sounds like a plea for a tip at the end of a meal. The frequent efforts to pull on the retreatants' heartstrings as a path to their purse strings betray a lack of trust in their thoughtfulness and leave a bad taste. And the entire way dana is handled for teachers doesn't escape the fact that it's payment for services rendered. Whether teachers think about this consciously or not, it pressures them subtly to tell their listeners what they think their listeners want to hear. The Dhamma can't help but suffer as a result.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Ajahn Brahm for sale?

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Mar 12, 2013 1:54 am

Cittasanto wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
Cittasanto wrote:and it is a shame you are reading so much into my posts tilt.
Actually, your posts is not always that easy to read, and I do my best to read them as they are written. So, then, if I misread your post, what is your point?


well I certainly wasn't saying anything remotely related to this and your opinion of levity, dourness, or clinging.
But: Oh, the inhumanity of it all. Naughty Ven B. Shame, shame, shame and more shame, scandlaizing us dour Buddhists with levity. Heavens to betsy, what are we to do? Maybe get over it, let it go, move on, tend to our own business, look within.

you have accused two people with no ground. but heaven forbid anyone engage with the outside world or have an opinion about it.
lets all find a hole and hide from any expectation of conduct and benefit we gain from our livelihood.
Actually, thank you, you have made my point, again.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.
"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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