Buddhislm is Absurd

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lojong1
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Buddhislm is Absurd

Post by lojong1 »

Dr. Zakir Naik seems to be the preferred word on buddhism in the islamic world. The following is from the comparative religion section of his website irf.net

-- "(i) There is suffering and misery in life.
(ii) The cause of suffering and misery is desire.
(iii) Suffering and misery can be removed by removing desire.
(iv) Desire can be removed by following the Eight Fold Path.
This Philosophy of Buddhism is self-contradictory or self-defeating because the third truth says ‘suffering and misery can be removed by removing desire’ and the fourth truth says that 'desire can be removed by following the Eight Fold Path'.
Now, for any person to follow Buddhism he should first have the desire to follow the Four Noble Truths and the Eight Fold Path. The Third great Noble Truth says that desire should be removed. Once you remove desire, how can we follow the Fourth Noble truth i.e. follow the Eight Fold Path unless we have a desire to follow the Eight Fold Path. In short desire can only be removed by having a desire to follow the Eight Fold Path. If you do not follow the Eight Fold Path, desire cannot be removed. It is self contradicting as well as self-defeating to say that desire will only be removed by continuously having a desire."


I feel raped, infected, pregnant, robbed, beaten looked at wrong and tickled pink! This is a carefully crafted piece of evil that does not want to be correct.

Suggest ways to quickly challenge this argument. :smile:
Sylvester
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Re: Buddhislm is Absurd

Post by Sylvester »

Aah. The Unnabha Paradox. See SN 51.15.
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James the Giant
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Re: Buddhislm is Absurd

Post by James the Giant »

Solved! Take THAT Dr Zakir Naik! Kapow!
Then,
saturated with joy,
you will put an end to suffering and stress.
SN 9.11
lojong1
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Re: Buddhislm is Absurd

Post by lojong1 »

My child will be named Sylvester. I knew of that response but didn't know which sutta.
lojong1
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Re: Buddhislm is Absurd

Post by lojong1 »

That is pretty freaking funny JtheG.

And miraculously self-opened on my desktop is 'Paradox of Becoming' which surely contains related material!
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Kim OHara
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Re: Buddhislm is Absurd

Post by Kim OHara »

Sylvester wrote:Aah. The Unnabha Paradox. See SN 51.15.
An alternative (and I am not claiming it is a better one :tongue: ) is to distinguish between desire/craving/greed and intention.
I can intend to follow the path which leads to my workplace tomorrow morning but that isn't really the same thing as desiring to do so.

:namaste:
Kim
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Sam Vara
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Re: Buddhislm is Absurd

Post by Sam Vara »

"....and then Ajahn Chah said to me
'Actually, Dr. Naik's website isn't really bothering your mind at all. If you reflect on it, it's your mind that is going out to bother Dr. Naik's website, isn't it?'..."
Spiny Norman
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Re: Buddhislm is Absurd

Post by Spiny Norman »

Sam Vara wrote:"....and then Ajahn Chah said to me
'Actually, Dr. Naik's website isn't really bothering your mind at all. If you reflect on it, it's your mind that is going out to bother Dr. Naik's website, isn't it?'..."
:clap:
Buddha save me from new-agers!
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manas
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Re: Buddhislm is Absurd

Post by manas »

Never mind that this Dr Naik has wrongly grasped the difference between the skillful use of desire to tread the Path, and the freedom from craving for sensuality, becoming and non-becoming experienced by the Arahant. Because in my experience, you could explain this to him, and then he would just find fault with something else about the Path.

He's a Muslim talking about Buddhism, did you expect a glowing appraisal?

'Forgive him, for he knows not what the heck he's talking about' :D

:anjali:
To the Buddha-refuge i go; to the Dhamma-refuge i go; to the Sangha-refuge i go.
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kirk5a
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Re: Buddhislm is Absurd

Post by kirk5a »

In college, a philosophy professor expressed exactly the same objection to me. Too bad I didn't know how to respond at the time. I knew it was fishy reasoning, but I couldn't put my finger on why.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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DNS
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Re: Buddhislm is Absurd

Post by DNS »

Sylvester wrote:Aah. The Unnabha Paradox. See SN 51.15.
That is a great Sutta. The issue comes up somewhat often at Dhamma centers where someone will state that all desire is bad, that even 'desire' for enlightenment is bad and having that desire will prevent it from happening. This is not true and when I get the chance I tell them about chanda, the wholesome desire. Ananda explains it much better in this Sutta.
Gena1480
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Re: Buddhislm is Absurd

Post by Gena1480 »

it is hard for Buddhist to understand
the four noble truth
let alone non Buddhist.
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m0rl0ck
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Re: Buddhislm is Absurd

Post by m0rl0ck »

:rofl:

WOW, talk about glass houses.
“The truth knocks on the door and you say, "Go away, I'm looking for the truth," and so it goes away. Puzzling.” ― Robert M. Pirsig
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Kusala
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Re: Buddhislm is Absurd

Post by Kusala »

lojong1 wrote:Dr. Zakir Naik seems to be the preferred word on buddhism in the islamic world. The following is from the comparative religion section of his website irf.net

-- "(i) There is suffering and misery in life.
(ii) The cause of suffering and misery is desire.
(iii) Suffering and misery can be removed by removing desire.
(iv) Desire can be removed by following the Eight Fold Path.
This Philosophy of Buddhism is self-contradictory or self-defeating because the third truth says ‘suffering and misery can be removed by removing desire’ and the fourth truth says that 'desire can be removed by following the Eight Fold Path'.
Now, for any person to follow Buddhism he should first have the desire to follow the Four Noble Truths and the Eight Fold Path. The Third great Noble Truth says that desire should be removed. Once you remove desire, how can we follow the Fourth Noble truth i.e. follow the Eight Fold Path unless we have a desire to follow the Eight Fold Path. In short desire can only be removed by having a desire to follow the Eight Fold Path. If you do not follow the Eight Fold Path, desire cannot be removed. It is self contradicting as well as self-defeating to say that desire will only be removed by continuously having a desire."


I feel raped, infected, pregnant, robbed, beaten looked at wrong and tickled pink! This is a carefully crafted piece of evil that does not want to be correct.

Suggest ways to quickly challenge this argument. :smile:


“Praise and blame, gain and loss, pleasure and sorrow come and go like the wind. To be happy, rest like a giant tree in the midst of them all”
- Buddha
"He, the Blessed One, is indeed the Noble Lord, the Perfectly Enlightened One;
He is impeccable in conduct and understanding, the Serene One, the Knower of the Worlds;
He trains perfectly those who wish to be trained; he is Teacher of gods and men; he is Awake and Holy. "

--------------------------------------------
"The Dhamma is well-expounded by the Blessed One,
Apparent here and now, timeless, encouraging investigation,
Leading to liberation, to be experienced individually by the wise. "
hataribaba
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Re: Buddhislm is Absurd

Post by hataribaba »

Salam alaykum

Being a Muslim myself, I know 'modern' Muslim preachers and their techniques quite well. Dr Naik knows that he addresses mostly people with no knowledge of buddhism whatsoever. Oddly enough, Naik's audience is predominantly Muslim, so he preaches to converts as it were. His 'mission' may be to spread Islam and reach new audiences from other faiths, but what he actually does is mainly reinforce already well-established beliefs and faith among the Muslim community.

I'm glad that his remarks have led some of you to learn new things about your own spiritual system, but I really don't think he is worth getting annoyed about.
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