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Ajahn Brahm for sale? - Page 8 - Dhamma Wheel

Ajahn Brahm for sale?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Cittasanto
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Re: Ajahn Brahm for sale?

Postby Cittasanto » Sat Mar 16, 2013 5:49 pm

Instead of focusing on what you think people are doing try correcting the points if they are in error! :focus:


He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

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LonesomeYogurt
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Re: Ajahn Brahm for sale?

Postby LonesomeYogurt » Sat Mar 16, 2013 7:24 pm

As I said before, I don't know enough about the actual Vinaya to be certain about this. However, I do think that monks should perhaps avoid doing things that are certain to appear as Vinaya violations. It seems that Brahmali had this explanation cocked and ready, and something about that really bothers me. I agree with Tilt that there is a bit too much finger-wagging here, but I also feel as though monks should err on the side of caution instead of doing things that really do seem to be rule-breakers, justification at the ready.

I like Brahm, and Brahmali, and I don't really care about this either way. Something does seem off though. Perhaps this could have been handled better.
Gain and loss, status and disgrace,
censure and praise, pleasure and pain:
these conditions among human beings are inconstant,
impermanent, subject to change.

Knowing this, the wise person, mindful,
ponders these changing conditions.
Desirable things don’t charm the mind,
undesirable ones bring no resistance.

His welcoming and rebelling are scattered,
gone to their end,
do not exist.
- Lokavipatti Sutta


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Modus.Ponens
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Re: Ajahn Brahm for sale?

Postby Modus.Ponens » Sat Mar 16, 2013 7:56 pm

I was extremely reluctant to comment on this thread and I haven't even read it all, but I'll give my 2 cents.

The worst case scenario is the scenario where Ajahn Brahm broke a vinaya rule. Although I think this is very unlikely, is it such a terrible thing? It wasn't a parajika. Ajahn Brahm is human so he is bound to break the vinaya. Even the Buddha, when he promised a heaven full of consorts to a disciple if he practiced the path thaught by the him, the Buddha (in my interpretation; I may be wrong) lied. The Buddha, the supreme example to all of us, wasn't exempt of breaking the vinaya. Ajahn Chah also read the palm of the hand of a disciple, breaking a vinaya rule. So this, I think, is such a subtle issue that it should be left to bhikkhus to decide the best course of action, if any at all. We, as lay people who haven't experienced what it is living acording to the vinaya should only express indignation if the situation is severe, like a parajika, or a schism, or a big event like the bhikkhuni ordination, for example. I would even understand comments if there were bad intentions in Ajahn Brahm's heart that were discernible to us. This is clearly not the case. When we're not even sure if it was a breaking of the vinaya, why be judgemental?

As a member already said, Ajahn Brahm deserves better.
He turns his mind away from those phenomena, and having done so, inclines his mind to the property of deathlessness: 'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.'
(Jhana Sutta - Thanissaro Bhikkhu translation)

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Stiphan
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Re: Ajahn Brahm for sale?

Postby Stiphan » Sat Mar 16, 2013 8:01 pm

Does anybody lose anything from this? Does this lead to harm and suffering for anyone? Does it lead to anyone's benefit? Is there any unwholesome intention involved here?

Something is unwholesome if (1.) it springs from greed, hatred, or delusion and (2.) it leads to harm and suffering for oneself or another or both.

I don't see any unwholesome intentions here and I don't see any harm for anyone involved.

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manas
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Re: Ajahn Brahm for sale?

Postby manas » Sat Mar 16, 2013 8:29 pm

Last edited by manas on Sat Mar 16, 2013 8:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Then the Blessed One, picking up a tiny bit of dust with the tip of his fingernail, said to the monk, "There isn't even this much form...feeling...
perception...fabrications...consciousness that is constant, lasting, eternal, not subject to change, that will stay just as it is as long as eternity."

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Cittasanto
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Re: Ajahn Brahm for sale?

Postby Cittasanto » Sat Mar 16, 2013 8:39 pm



He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

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manas
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Re: Ajahn Brahm for sale?

Postby manas » Sat Mar 16, 2013 8:52 pm

Then the Blessed One, picking up a tiny bit of dust with the tip of his fingernail, said to the monk, "There isn't even this much form...feeling...
perception...fabrications...consciousness that is constant, lasting, eternal, not subject to change, that will stay just as it is as long as eternity."

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Cittasanto
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Re: Ajahn Brahm for sale?

Postby Cittasanto » Sat Mar 16, 2013 8:59 pm



He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

SamKR
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Re: Ajahn Brahm for sale?

Postby SamKR » Sat Mar 16, 2013 9:25 pm

No doubt about Ajahn Brahm's good intentions and no doubt that he has contributed a lot and that he is just trying to work for the benefit of many. Also, this may not be against Vinaya.

But would the Buddha (Gotama) approve this? Probably not.
Just an opinion based on a handful of suttas I've read so far.

:namaste:

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James the Giant
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Re: Ajahn Brahm for sale?

Postby James the Giant » Sat Mar 16, 2013 11:10 pm

This debate reminds me of the Devadatta schism...
A group of people holding monks to a higher standard than what the vinaya actually requires.
Then,
saturated with joy,
you will put an end to suffering and stress.

Gena1480
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Re: Ajahn Brahm for sale?

Postby Gena1480 » Sat Mar 16, 2013 11:48 pm

where does a Bhikkhu go
when breaking a rule
does he go to the support of the Sangha
that ordain him.
i know its not of any of my Business,
but remembering the sutta where even Arahant didn't have inclination to teach ordain Bhikkhunis
only from direct instruction from the Buddha they change their mind.

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Dan74
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Re: Ajahn Brahm for sale?

Postby Dan74 » Sun Mar 17, 2013 12:27 am

I am wondering what the purpose of this thread is?

Have you written to Ajahn Brahm, Cittasanto? That would be useful.

Other than that, it just sounds like a whole lot of conceit to believe one's take on Vinaya and the Dhamma to be superior to an outstanding monk ordained for nearly 40 years, especially for one who's been on this earth for barely half this long?

I mean questioning is great but it's got to be open-minded and respectful and this seems to be increasingly rare these days.
_/|\_

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SDC
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Re: Ajahn Brahm for sale?

Postby SDC » Sun Mar 17, 2013 12:40 am


Gena1480
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Re: Ajahn Brahm for sale?

Postby Gena1480 » Sun Mar 17, 2013 12:45 am

where do i go to write
i'm interested
maybe i
will learn something.

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Modus.Ponens
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Re: Ajahn Brahm for sale?

Postby Modus.Ponens » Sun Mar 17, 2013 12:59 am

He turns his mind away from those phenomena, and having done so, inclines his mind to the property of deathlessness: 'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.'
(Jhana Sutta - Thanissaro Bhikkhu translation)

santa100
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Re: Ajahn Brahm for sale?

Postby santa100 » Sun Mar 17, 2013 1:35 am


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m0rl0ck
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Re: Ajahn Brahm for sale?

Postby m0rl0ck » Sun Mar 17, 2013 1:48 am

“The truth knocks on the door and you say, "Go away, I'm looking for the truth," and so it goes away. Puzzling.” ― Robert M. Pirsig

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tiltbillings
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Re: Ajahn Brahm for sale?

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Mar 17, 2013 1:57 am


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polarbear101
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Re: Ajahn Brahm for sale?

Postby polarbear101 » Sun Mar 17, 2013 2:15 am

It certainly isn't some horrible thing Ajahn Brahm is doing and he has the best of intentions. I just think that the Buddha would disapprove of the way Ven Brahm is going about it, which of course is of no consequence since he isn't around anymore anyway so that's just my take on it. I apologize for the way I wrote my second comment on this thread and I deleted it a couple of days ago, it came off sounding worse than I wanted it to. I don't think it's dour though to have an opinion on how bhikkhu's should go around acquiring requisites (shelter in this case) either for themselves or for their fellow samanas when the opinion is at least somewhat educated but anyway, enough said. I hope the bhikkhuni's in Australia get to have the planned monastery and may they all realize nibbana in this very life.

:anjali:
"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."

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tiltbillings
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Re: Ajahn Brahm for sale?

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Mar 17, 2013 2:24 am



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