How do the masses understanding their feelings & emotions?

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How do the masses understanding their feelings & emotions?

Postby retrofuturist » Thu Mar 21, 2013 11:53 pm

Greetings,

Is it normal that people do not take personal accountability for their own feelings and emotions?

I get the sense a lot of people think that these are just things that "happen" to them.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: How do the masses understanding their feelings & emotion

Postby convivium » Fri Mar 22, 2013 12:03 am

what are some of the ways that you take personal accountability, or instances in which you would take accountability, for your experience of emotions and feelings? can you think of cases wherein you wouldn't or reasons why you shouldn't?
Just keep breathing in and out like this. Don't be interested in anything else. It doesn't matter even if someone is standing on their head with their ass in the air. Don't pay it any attention. Just stay with the in-breath and the out-breath. Concentrate your awareness on the breath. Just keep doing it. http://www.ajahnchah.org/book/Just_Do_It_1_2.php
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Re: How do the masses understanding their feelings & emotion

Postby retrofuturist » Fri Mar 22, 2013 12:14 am

Greetings,

convivium wrote:what are some of the ways that you take personal accountability, or instances in which you would take accountability, for your experience of emotions and feelings? can you think of cases wherein you wouldn't or reasons why you shouldn't?

It's as much about ownership as anything else. Some people seem like leaves in the wind, blown around by external circumstances and internal instability, and seem to just accept that this is how it is and how it shall be.

To me it's very natural that...
Dhammapada wrote:1. Mind precedes all mental states. Mind is their chief; they are all mind-wrought. If with an impure mind a person speaks or acts suffering follows him like the wheel that follows the foot of the ox.
2. Mind precedes all mental states. Mind is their chief; they are all mind-wrought. If with a pure mind a person speaks or acts happiness follows him like his never-departing shadow.

... but it seems like many people in society have an inverse view where "mind" plays no active role in shaping these things.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: How do the masses understanding their feelings & emotion

Postby convivium » Fri Mar 22, 2013 12:16 am

do you want to restrict the scope of your question to taking responsibility for suffering or not suffering? to see that "mind precedes mental states" could be taken to mean you've seen dependent origination directly, and are at least a stream enterer (most people haven't seen this). what do you take this phrase to mean?
Just keep breathing in and out like this. Don't be interested in anything else. It doesn't matter even if someone is standing on their head with their ass in the air. Don't pay it any attention. Just stay with the in-breath and the out-breath. Concentrate your awareness on the breath. Just keep doing it. http://www.ajahnchah.org/book/Just_Do_It_1_2.php
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Re: How do the masses understanding their feelings & emotion

Postby danieLion » Fri Mar 22, 2013 1:06 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,

Is it normal that people do not take personal accountability for their own feelings and emotions?

I get the sense a lot of people think that these are just things that "happen" to them.

Metta,
Retro. :)

Accroding to Rational Emotive Behavior Therapy it is the norm for people not to take personal accountability for their own feelings and emotions. REBT postulates that this is intimately related to Irrational Beliefs. Here's the top ten IBs Alber Ellis identified in A Guide To Rational Living (numbers are pages).

1) The idea that you must have love or approval from all the significant people in your life (101).

2) The idea that you absolutely must be thoroughly competent, adequate, and achieving or the idea that you must be competent or talented in some important area (115).

3)The idea that other people absolutely must not act obnoxiously and unfairly, and, that when they do, you should blame and damn them, and see them as bad, wicked, or rotten individuals (127).

4)The idea that you have to see things as being awful, terrible, and catastrophic when you are seriously frustrated or treated unfairly (139).

5)The idea that you must be miserable when you have pressures and difficult experiences; and that you have little ability to control, and cannot change, your disturbed feelings (155).

6)The idea that if something is dangerous or fearsome, you must obsess about it and frantically try to escape from it (163).

7) The idea that you can easily avoid facing many difficulties and self-responsibilities and still lead a highly fulfilling existence (177).

8) The idea that your past remains all-important and because something once strongly influenced your life, it has to keep determining your feelings and behavior today (187).

9) The idea that people and things absolutely must be better than they are and that it is awful and horrible if you cannot change life’s grim facts to suit you (197).

10) The idea that you can achieve maximum happiness by inertia and inaction or by passively and uncommittedly enjoying yourself (207).
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Re: How do the masses understanding their feelings & emotion

Postby danieLion » Fri Mar 22, 2013 1:15 am

retrofuturist wrote:
To me it's very natural that...

Dhammapada wrote:1. Mind precedes all mental states. Mind is their chief; they are all mind-wrought. If with an impure mind a person speaks or acts suffering follows him like the wheel that follows the foot of the ox.
2. Mind precedes all mental states. Mind is their chief; they are all mind-wrought. If with a pure mind a person speaks or acts happiness follows him like his never-departing shadow.

Indeed.
And:
AN 4.49: Vipallasa Sutta: Distortions of the Mind wrote:These four, O Monks, are distortions of perception, distortions of thought distortions of view...

Sensing no change in the changing,
Sensing pleasure in suffering,
Assuming "self" where there's no self,
Sensing the un-lovely as lovely —

Gone astray with wrong views, beings
Mis-perceive with distorted minds.

Bound in the bondage of Mara,
Those people are far from safety.
They're beings that go on flowing:
Going again from death to birth.

But when in the world of darkness
Buddhas arise to make things bright,
They present this profound teaching
Which brings suffering to an end.

When those with wisdom have heard this,
They recuperate their right mind:

They see change in what is changing,
Suffering where there's suffering,
"Non-self" in what is without self,
They see the un-lovely as such.

By this acceptance of right view,
They overcome all suffering.
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Re: How do the masses understanding their feelings & emotion

Postby danieLion » Fri Mar 22, 2013 1:25 am

retrofuturist wrote:...it seems like many people in society have an inverse view where "mind" plays no active role in shaping these things.

Word:

AN 1.48

I don't envision a single thing that is as quick to reverse itself as the mind — so much so that there is no feasible simile for how quick to reverse itself it is.


And:

AN 1.31-40

31. "Monks, I know not of any other single thing so intractable as the untamed mind. The untamed mind is indeed a thing untractable.

32. "Monks, I know not of any other thing so tractable as the tamed mind. The tamed mind is indeed a thing tractable.

33. "Monks, I know not of any other single thing so conducive to great loss as the untamed mind. The untamed mind indeed conduces to great loss.

34. "Monks, I know not of any other single thing so conducive to great profit as the tamed mind. The tamed mind indeed conduces to great profit.

39. "Monks, I know not of any other single thing that brings such woe as the mind that is untamed, uncontrolled, unguarded and unrestrained. Such a mind indeed brings great woe.

40. "Monks, I know not of any other single thing that brings such bliss as the mind that is tamed, controlled, guarded and restrained. Such a mind indeed brings great bliss."


And:

AN 1.21-1.40

21. "I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped, is as unpliant as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped, is unpliant."

22. "I don't envision a single thing that, when developed, is as pliant as the mind. The mind, when developed, is pliant."

23. "I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped, leads to such great harm as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped leads to great harm."

24. "I don't envision a single thing that, when developed, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed leads to great benefit."

25. "I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & unapparent, leads to such great harm as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & unapparent leads to great harm."

26. "I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & apparent, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & apparent, leads to great benefit."

27. "I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, leads to such great harm as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated leads to great harm."

28. "I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

29. "I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."

30. "I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, brings about such happiness as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, brings about happiness."

31. "I don't envision a single thing that, when untamed, leads to such great harm as the mind. The mind, when untamed leads to great harm."

32. "I don't envision a single thing that, when tamed, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when tamed leads to great benefit."

33. "I don't envision a single thing that, when unguarded, leads to such great harm as the mind. The mind, when unguarded leads to great harm."

34. "I don't envision a single thing that, when guarded, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when guarded leads to great benefit."

35. "I don't envision a single thing that, when unprotected, leads to such great harm as the mind. The mind, when unprotected leads to great harm."

36. "I don't envision a single thing that, when protected, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when protected leads to great benefit."

37. "I don't envision a single thing that, when unrestrained, leads to such great harm as the mind. The mind, when unrestrained leads to great harm."

38. "I don't envision a single thing that, when restrained, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when restrained leads to great benefit."

39. "I don't envision a single thing that — when untamed, unguarded, unprotected, unrestrained — leads to such great harm as the mind. The mind — when untamed, unguarded, unprotected, unrestrained — leads to great harm."

40. "I don't envision a single thing that — when tamed, guarded, protected, restrained — leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind — when tamed, guarded, protected, restrained — leads to great benefit."
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Re: How do the masses understanding their feelings & emotion

Postby SDC » Fri Mar 22, 2013 2:21 am

I do not think it is a matter of people not taking accountability as much as it is that people don't think they have the ability to adjust themselves, and as a result they just weather the storm when it comes.
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Re: How do the masses understanding their feelings & emotion

Postby m0rl0ck » Fri Mar 22, 2013 2:28 am

Its so nice to be spiritually advanced, isnt it?
Joshu was asked,
"When a man comes to you with nothing,
what would you say to him ?"
Joshu replied, "Throw it away!"
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Re: How do the masses understanding their feelings & emotion

Postby retrofuturist » Fri Mar 22, 2013 2:36 am

Greetings m0rl0ck,

m0rl0ck wrote:Its so nice to be spiritually advanced, isnt it?

Your "tone" (as much as such things can be discerned by text) suggests that there's smugness or mocking afoot on my part, but that's definitely not the case.

It's genuine bafflement that so many people can be this way, and genuine bafflement on their part that I'm not like that. It's a rather isolating divide when trying to establish meaningful connections with people.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: How do the masses understanding their feelings & emotion

Postby m0rl0ck » Fri Mar 22, 2013 2:47 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings m0rl0ck,

m0rl0ck wrote:Its so nice to be spiritually advanced, isnt it?

Your "tone" (as much as such things can be discerned by text) suggests that there's smugness or mocking afoot on my part, but that's definitely not the case.

It's genuine bafflement that so many people can be this way, and genuine bafflement on their part that I'm not like that. It's a rather isolating divide when trying to establish meaningful connections with people.

Metta,
Retro. :)


Yeah, you got me. I was being sarcastic. I sort of know what you mean tho, i can be reactive on occasion, but im less driven than i used to be. Different people are just differently reactive to different things, i dont think you can really generalize as in "masses".
Joshu was asked,
"When a man comes to you with nothing,
what would you say to him ?"
Joshu replied, "Throw it away!"
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Re: How do the masses understanding their feelings & emotion

Postby David N. Snyder » Fri Mar 22, 2013 3:44 am

retrofuturist wrote:Is it normal that people do not take personal accountability for their own feelings and emotions?


It's Barney's (the dinosaur) fault. :tongue:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barney_%26 ... #Criticism

I only slightly mean that as tongue-in-cheek. Everyone was told that they are special. No, no one is special; you have to earn it.

If anything goes wrong, it is someone else's fault in the entitlement world. If you order a hot coffee and spill it on your lap, all of a sudden it is the restaurant's fault. If you are angry all the time, it is because everyone is making you mad, everyone is jerking you around, i.e., it is their fault. There seems to be less personal responsibility for just about everything.
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Re: How do the masses understanding their feelings & emotion

Postby retrofuturist » Fri Mar 22, 2013 4:03 am

Greetings,

m0rl0ck wrote:i dont think you can really generalize as in "masses".

Yeah, I'm just after a broad perspective... people's experiences and perceptions in this space. Whatever people come back with is fine by me.

I have Aspergers which can make it difficult to discern the thought-processes of neurotypicals and how they see the world and engage with it.

David wrote:If anything goes wrong, it is someone else's fault in the entitlement world. If you order a hot coffee and spill it on your lap, all of a sudden it is the restaurant's fault. If you are angry all the time, it is because everyone is making you mad, everyone is jerking you around, i.e., it is their fault. There seems to be less personal responsibility for just about everything.

Yes, and presumably it's even worse in the U.S. where the culture is more litigious.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: How do the masses understanding their feelings & emotion

Postby m0rl0ck » Fri Mar 22, 2013 4:07 am

retrofuturist wrote:
I have Aspergers which can make it difficult to discern the thought-processes of neurotypicals and how they see the world and engage with it.

Metta,
Retro. :)

I score pretty high on that scale too and am sometimes flummoxed at the things people do :)
Joshu was asked,
"When a man comes to you with nothing,
what would you say to him ?"
Joshu replied, "Throw it away!"
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Re: How do the masses understanding their feelings & emotion

Postby Nyorai » Fri Mar 22, 2013 5:51 am

never seem to me there is any emotion or feeling in them. life is so much lovely :alien:
ImageTo become vegetarian is to step into the stream which leads to nirvana.
If you light a lamp for somebody, it will also brighten your path. He who experiences the unity of life sees his own Self in all beings, and all beings in his own Self.Image
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Re: How do the masses understanding their feelings & emotion

Postby convivium » Fri Mar 22, 2013 5:57 am

yeah we're better than the masses. :woohoo:
Just keep breathing in and out like this. Don't be interested in anything else. It doesn't matter even if someone is standing on their head with their ass in the air. Don't pay it any attention. Just stay with the in-breath and the out-breath. Concentrate your awareness on the breath. Just keep doing it. http://www.ajahnchah.org/book/Just_Do_It_1_2.php
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Re: How do the masses understanding their feelings & emotion

Postby alan... » Fri Mar 22, 2013 6:02 am

oh totally. not only that, most people blame their actions on their emotions! "sorry i yelled and threw a rock at your car, i was angry." ooookay... so you're like the hulk and have no control over yourself when angry or what?

or just blind emotion "i'm so angry about blah." and there's no end to it in sight. logically one may be angry and seek a solution, but people who do not see emotions for what they are think just being angry is a stand alone state. i try to see the anger as the evolutionary tool it is: an emotion put forth to urge me to find a solution to a problem. since i'm buddhist it's usually "let it go and move on." and sometimes i actually have to take action like deciding not to spend time at a certain store where i always wait in absurdly long lines and is over priced anyway or something like that.

one interesting thing is emotion in and out of the work place. most people will snap and yell and carry on outside of work, but give them the exact same problem at work and they're perfectly composed and deal with the problem in utter calmness. so it's clear that the expression of anger/sadness/whatever outside of work is a choice, not a necessity.

also a lot of people do things because of an emotion while blinding themselves to the possible results. like a woman or man is so angry at her cheating boyfriend that s/he breaks his car windows. in the moment he feels it's the right thing to do to fulfill the angry urge. he becomes the anger. "i'm so angry i can't even think straight" so he just acts. then later if he gets in trouble he thinks "why the heck didn't i stop and think about that?" this kind of activity comes from a habitual thinking that is the exact opposite of mindfulness training. ironically people like this frequently live very much in the moment which is akin to mindfulness, just lacking the sampajanna!!!

not to say i'm perfect in the field of emotions but i see them VERY differently than others i know who care nothing for the dhamma or even simply philosophy or the study of the psyche.
Last edited by alan... on Fri Mar 22, 2013 6:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: How do the masses understanding their feelings & emotion

Postby convivium » Fri Mar 22, 2013 6:09 am

beings are numberless i vow to save them

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/thai/mun/ballad.html
Just keep breathing in and out like this. Don't be interested in anything else. It doesn't matter even if someone is standing on their head with their ass in the air. Don't pay it any attention. Just stay with the in-breath and the out-breath. Concentrate your awareness on the breath. Just keep doing it. http://www.ajahnchah.org/book/Just_Do_It_1_2.php
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Re: How do the masses understanding their feelings & emotion

Postby polarbuddha101 » Fri Mar 22, 2013 6:19 am

convivium wrote:
beings are numberless i vow to save them

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/thai/mun/ballad.html


Might take a while :tongue:
"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."
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Re: How do the masses understanding their feelings & emotion

Postby convivium » Fri Mar 22, 2013 6:24 am

first save yourself. without the subject and object dichotomy as a basic feature of consciousness, one's sense of being separate from others becomes quite different...
Just keep breathing in and out like this. Don't be interested in anything else. It doesn't matter even if someone is standing on their head with their ass in the air. Don't pay it any attention. Just stay with the in-breath and the out-breath. Concentrate your awareness on the breath. Just keep doing it. http://www.ajahnchah.org/book/Just_Do_It_1_2.php
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