Angulimala. Was he a real historical figure?

[frank k]

thread on the chronology and authenticity of pali suttas http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 10&start=0

My main interest in this subject is, was the Angulimala sutta a real sutta?
Or was it an exaggerated version of a real historical character?
Is it possible the whole story was completely fabricated?

I'm wondering about the chronology of the sutta, as well as if in the vinaya and other text there are corroborating evidence that Angulimala actually existed. One would think if a killer who successfully killed 999 people and attempted to kill a samma sambuddha, there would be some interesting to say about it in the vinaya, as well as stories of how Angulimala interacted with his fellow monastics, etc.

The wiki article gives a good overview and an interesting quote
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angulimala

Richard F. Gombrich, in his paper Who was Angulimala?, has postulated that the story of Angulimala may represent an encounter between the Buddha and a follower of an early form of Saivite or Shakti tantra. Gombrich reaches this conclusion on the basis of a number of inconsistencies in the sutta text that indicate possible corruption (particularly the failure of the verses in the Theragatha to conform to accepted Pāli metrical schemes), and the fairly weak explanations for Angulimala's behaviour provided by the commentators. He notes that there are several other references in the early Pāli canon that seem to indicate the presence of devotees of Siva, Kali, and other divinities associated with sanguinary tantric practices, and that Angulimala's behaviour would not be inconsistent with certain violent practices that were observed in India by Thuggee-like transgressive cults into recent times. However the fact that Thuggee itself was an army of ex-soldiers of the erstwhile Nizam of Hyderabad, who were Muslims, as documented by Sleeman et al., detracts from Gombrich's claim. If Gombrich's thesis could be conclusively proven, it would establish the Angulimala Sutta as likely being the earliest known documentation of tantric practices in South Asia, about which very little is known before the 7th century CE.

[tiltbillings]

My main interest in this subject is, was the Angulimala sutta a real sutta?

What would a fake sutta be?

Or was it an exaggerated version of a real historical character?
Is it possible the whole story was completely fabricated?

Both are possible, but there is no way to know with any certainty this way or that.

[LonesomeYogurt]

If you can, it's worth tracking down Gombrich's essay on the subject. He makes a pretty compelling argument, in my mind - but as Tilt said, it's probably impossible to make a certain case one way or the other.

[DNS]

If I recall correctly, the 999 victims figure is only in the Commentaries, not the Sutta?

The Sutta mentions his killings without a specific number, I think.

Angulimala = garland of fingers

Why didn't he just amputate the fingers and collect them that way? Some mafia members have their little fingers amputated apparently to show discipline, devotion to the organization; so it could be done without killing the victim.

[convivium]

For that matter, he could have collected the fingers from a charnel ground.

[pilgrim]

For that matter, he could have collected the fingers from a charnel ground.

From what I remember reading, his intention was to take lives. The fingers was only to help him keep count of the number.

[convivium]

i did an essay comparing him to frankenstein in junior college and got an A. i should know

[frank k]

My main interest in this subject is, was the Angulimala sutta a real sutta?

What would a fake sutta be?

good question, i'll comment on the parent thread.
thread on the chronology and authenticity of pali suttas http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 10&start=0

[Bhikkhu Pesala]

One would think if a killer who successfully killed 999 people and attempted to kill a samma sambuddha, there would be some interesting to say about it in the vinaya, as well as stories of how Angulimala interacted with his fellow monastics, etc.

The Vinaya does say something about him. After he was ordained, people complained about it, so the Buddha made a rule prohibiting the ordination of criminals who had been announced as wanted by the authorities.

Aṅgulimāla did not live long after his ordination.

The Aṅgulimāla Sutta (Paritta) is well known, but there's not much else said about him. King Pasenadi offered to provide his requisites.

The story of Tambadāṭhika is no less remarkable.

[Kumara]

For that matter, he could have collected the fingers from a charnel ground.

From what I remember reading, his intention was to take lives. The fingers was only to help him keep count of the number.

That is based on the commentarial version of the story. No such idea is found in the sutta. In the sutta, he was referred to as "a bandit in the realm of King Pasenadi of Kosala named Angulimala, who was murderous, bloody-handed, given to blows and violence, merciless to living beings. Villages, towns, and districts were laid waste by him. He was constantly murdering people and he wore their fingers as a garland." (from MLDB). ["Murdering" seems to me over-translated. "Slaying" should be more appropriate for "vadhati".]

I suggest reading the sutta in itself, and see what it doesn't say.

[Soumili Ghosh AZ]

pretty sure and hope that he is a fictional character i mean people those days too were fond of literature and angulimala story is beautiful redemption fiction but something that should not happen in real life because the villagers alone would have punished him for his crimes in real life and thats how it should be so it's not very realistic for that's why it is better as fiction i hope he is a fictional character.