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never fall into lower realms again? - Dhamma Wheel

never fall into lower realms again?

A forum for members who wish to develop a deeper understanding of the Pali Canon and associated Commentaries, which for discussion purposes are both treated as authoritative.

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alan...
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never fall into lower realms again?

Postby alan... » Thu Jan 17, 2013 6:39 pm

there is some attainment that is not sotapanna that guarantees one will never fall into the lower realms again. what is it?

it does not guarantee nibbana but it does keep one in human or above realms forever. i feel like it has something to do with the precepts...

i think i read it in the canon i think but i can't remember where...

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daverupa
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Re: never fall into lower realms again?

Postby daverupa » Thu Jan 17, 2013 6:42 pm

It's stream-entry which guarantees no more lower realms; precisely, it is the destruction of the three lower fetters which is the reason for this guarantee.

alan...
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Re: never fall into lower realms again?

Postby alan... » Thu Jan 17, 2013 6:49 pm


perkele
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Re: never fall into lower realms again?

Postby perkele » Thu Jan 17, 2013 7:00 pm

I have heard of the concept of a "cula-sotapanna" ("lesser" sotapanna), as discussed here for example: viewtopic.php?f=13&t=434
It seems to designate a person who is not yet a sotapanna but for some reason will definitely attain the fruit of sotapatti upon death, or even shortly thereafter, after being reborn in some deva realm where he swiftly receives instruction.

So that's something different than what you were talking about.

I also remember vaguely someone (I think it might have been Bhante Yuttadhammo in one of his gazillions of videos) talking about some "attainment" where a person has been able to see the workings of kamma clearly, so that they are unable to do anything in this life which will take them to one of the lower realms, but they have not yet abandoned the three lower fetters and can forget about what they saw in the next life, and so go down again. I think that was also referred to as cula-sotapanna, so maybe the term is not quite so definitely defined and agreed upon. But I have not investigated this very much.

But what you mention about someone being unable to go to the lower realms ever anymore, but not being a stream-enterer, or on his definite way to stream-entry, is something I have never heard of.

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kirk5a
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Re: never fall into lower realms again?

Postby kirk5a » Thu Jan 17, 2013 7:03 pm

"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

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gavesako
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Re: never fall into lower realms again?

Postby gavesako » Thu Jan 17, 2013 7:22 pm

Bhikkhu Gavesako
Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)

- Theravada texts
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Cittasanto
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Re: never fall into lower realms again?

Postby Cittasanto » Thu Jan 17, 2013 7:27 pm



He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

alan...
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Re: never fall into lower realms again?

Postby alan... » Thu Jan 17, 2013 7:46 pm


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PadmaPhala
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Re: never fall into lower realms again?

Postby PadmaPhala » Fri Mar 22, 2013 1:21 am


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convivium
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Re: never fall into lower realms again?

Postby convivium » Fri Mar 22, 2013 6:28 am

one's being concerned with one's rebirth is a sure sign of delusion.
Just keep breathing in and out like this. Don't be interested in anything else. It doesn't matter even if someone is standing on their head with their ass in the air. Don't pay it any attention. Just stay with the in-breath and the out-breath. Concentrate your awareness on the breath. Just keep doing it. http://www.ajahnchah.org/book/Just_Do_It_1_2.php

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LonesomeYogurt
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Re: never fall into lower realms again?

Postby LonesomeYogurt » Fri Mar 22, 2013 6:35 am

Gain and loss, status and disgrace,
censure and praise, pleasure and pain:
these conditions among human beings are inconstant,
impermanent, subject to change.

Knowing this, the wise person, mindful,
ponders these changing conditions.
Desirable things don’t charm the mind,
undesirable ones bring no resistance.

His welcoming and rebelling are scattered,
gone to their end,
do not exist.
- Lokavipatti Sutta


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convivium
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Re: never fall into lower realms again?

Postby convivium » Fri Mar 22, 2013 6:37 am

it's mundane right view (from the perspective of transcendental right view even this is, in a sense, delusion). as concerns this life, however, it seems more relevant that one should strive to see through the false sense of being this intellect or subject (this sufferer) that is separate and removed from (and afflicted by) the rest of the world.
Just keep breathing in and out like this. Don't be interested in anything else. It doesn't matter even if someone is standing on their head with their ass in the air. Don't pay it any attention. Just stay with the in-breath and the out-breath. Concentrate your awareness on the breath. Just keep doing it. http://www.ajahnchah.org/book/Just_Do_It_1_2.php

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Nyorai
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Re: never fall into lower realms again?

Postby Nyorai » Fri Mar 22, 2013 7:11 am

lower realms are the ghost, animals and hell - this is simple not to fall into, just be vegetarianism, think kindly, benevolently and be charitable for the good of others :twothumbsup:
ImageTo become vegetarian is to step into the stream which leads to nirvana.
If you light a lamp for somebody, it will also brighten your path. He who experiences the unity of life sees his own Self in all beings, and all beings in his own Self.Image

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BlackBird
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Re: never fall into lower realms again?

Postby BlackBird » Fri Mar 22, 2013 7:23 am

"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." -

santa100
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Re: never fall into lower realms again?

Postby santa100 » Fri Mar 22, 2013 1:51 pm


Digity
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Re: never fall into lower realms again?

Postby Digity » Fri Mar 22, 2013 4:32 pm

Does a stream winner have just seven lives remaining? I've also heard the word for seven in Pali also means "many" lives, so it could mean 10, 100, 1000 or very many, but they'll eventually put an end to suffering. I would like some clarification on this.

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equilibrium
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Re: never fall into lower realms again?

Postby equilibrium » Fri Mar 22, 2013 9:25 pm


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BlackBird
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Re: never fall into lower realms again?

Postby BlackBird » Fri Mar 22, 2013 11:28 pm

It's unequivocally 7.
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." -

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convivium
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Re: never fall into lower realms again?

Postby convivium » Sat Mar 23, 2013 3:41 am

Just keep breathing in and out like this. Don't be interested in anything else. It doesn't matter even if someone is standing on their head with their ass in the air. Don't pay it any attention. Just stay with the in-breath and the out-breath. Concentrate your awareness on the breath. Just keep doing it. http://www.ajahnchah.org/book/Just_Do_It_1_2.php


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