No inherent sensual pleasure

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Alex123
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No inherent sensual pleasure

Postby Alex123 » Sat Mar 23, 2013 4:41 pm

Hello all,

Lets say you want to eat the cake, when you eat it - you experience pleasure. But when you stop eating it, the pleasure stops and eventually you back where you started from. If one tries to eat one cake after another cake, then very soon what was sources of pleasure will feel painful. If cake was trully the cause of pleasure, why does it turn into unpleasant feeling when indulged excessively?

One can feel thirsty (dukkha-vedanā) and then when one drinks the water, one feels good feeling. But if one keeps drinking glass after glass after glass, it will feel uncomfortable and can even lead to death.

Sitting and resting can feel great after a long and tiring walk (which is painful). But try to sit for many hours. It will feel uncomfortable. Here also we have a case where something when indulged excessively long becomes uncomfortable.

Maybe there are no inherent pleasures in the world, just more or less dukkha. The relief of greater dukkha feels pleasant, but only for short amount of time and only in comparison with greater dukkha.

What is your opinion?
"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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LonesomeYogurt
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Re: No inherent sensual pleasure

Postby LonesomeYogurt » Sat Mar 23, 2013 4:56 pm

Good thoughts. There is a sutta where the Buddha talks about the different ways the same thing can affect different people, and how this shows that pleasure and suffering are not inherent in an object but instead created by contact. I can't find it though :/
Gain and loss, status and disgrace,
censure and praise, pleasure and pain:
these conditions among human beings are inconstant,
impermanent, subject to change.

Knowing this, the wise person, mindful,
ponders these changing conditions.
Desirable things don’t charm the mind,
undesirable ones bring no resistance.

His welcoming and rebelling are scattered,
gone to their end,
do not exist.
- Lokavipatti Sutta


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David N. Snyder
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Re: No inherent sensual pleasure

Postby David N. Snyder » Sat Mar 23, 2013 5:26 pm

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IanAnd
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Re: No inherent sensual pleasure

Postby IanAnd » Sat Mar 23, 2013 6:46 pm

"The gift of truth exceeds all other gifts" — Dhammapada, v. 354 Craving XXIV

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manas
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Re: No inherent sensual pleasure

Postby manas » Sat Mar 23, 2013 8:40 pm

Then the Blessed One, picking up a tiny bit of dust with the tip of his fingernail, said to the monk, "There isn't even this much form...feeling...
perception...fabrications...consciousness that is constant, lasting, eternal, not subject to change, that will stay just as it is as long as eternity."

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Alex123
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Re: No inherent sensual pleasure

Postby Alex123 » Sat Mar 23, 2013 9:07 pm

"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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Zom
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Re: No inherent sensual pleasure

Postby Zom » Sat Mar 23, 2013 9:17 pm


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Alex123
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Re: No inherent sensual pleasure

Postby Alex123 » Sat Mar 23, 2013 9:45 pm

"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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Zom
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Re: No inherent sensual pleasure

Postby Zom » Sat Mar 23, 2013 11:30 pm


Coyote
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Re: No inherent sensual pleasure

Postby Coyote » Sun Mar 24, 2013 12:26 am

But pleasure is still Dukkha.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

"Magandiya, suppose that there was a leper covered with sores and infections, devoured by worms, picking the scabs off the openings of his wounds with his nails, cauterizing his body over a pit of glowing embers. His friends, companions, & relatives would take him to a doctor. The doctor would concoct medicine for him, and thanks to the medicine he would be cured of his leprosy: well & happy, free, master of himself, going wherever he liked. Then suppose two strong men, having grabbed him with their arms, were to drag him to a pit of glowing embers. What do you think? Wouldn't he twist his body this way & that?"

"Yes, master Gotama. Why is that? The fire is painful to the touch, very hot & scorching."

"Now what do you think, Magandiya? Is the fire painful to the touch, very hot & scorching, only now, or was it also that way before?"

"Both now & before is it painful to the touch, very hot & scorching, master Gotama. It's just that when the man was a leper covered with sores and infections, devoured by worms, picking the scabs off the openings of his wounds with his nails, his faculties were impaired, which was why, even though the fire was actually painful to the touch, he had the skewed perception of 'pleasant.'"

"In the same way, Magandiya, sensual pleasures in the past were painful to the touch, very hot & scorching; sensual pleasures in the future will be painful to the touch, very hot & scorching; sensual pleasures at present are painful to the touch, very hot & scorching; but when beings are not free from passion for sensual pleasures — devoured by sensual craving, burning with sensual fever — their faculties are impaired, which is why, even though sensual pleasures are actually painful to the touch, they have the skewed perception of 'pleasant.'
"If beings knew, as I know, the results of giving & sharing, they would not eat without having given, nor would the stain of miserliness overcome their minds. Even if it were their last bite, their last mouthful, they would not eat without having shared."
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Re: No inherent sensual pleasure

Postby Sylvester » Sun Mar 24, 2013 3:17 am


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Re: No inherent sensual pleasure

Postby Zom » Sun Mar 24, 2013 9:05 am


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Re: No inherent sensual pleasure

Postby Spiny Norman » Sun Mar 24, 2013 11:58 am

"My religion is very simple - my religion is ice-cream."
Dairy Lama

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Re: No inherent sensual pleasure

Postby Spiny Norman » Sun Mar 24, 2013 12:00 pm

"My religion is very simple - my religion is ice-cream."
Dairy Lama

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Re: No inherent sensual pleasure

Postby Coyote » Sun Mar 24, 2013 12:29 pm

"If beings knew, as I know, the results of giving & sharing, they would not eat without having given, nor would the stain of miserliness overcome their minds. Even if it were their last bite, their last mouthful, they would not eat without having shared."
Iti 26

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Alex123
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Re: No inherent sensual pleasure

Postby Alex123 » Sun Mar 24, 2013 12:36 pm

"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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Spiny Norman
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Re: No inherent sensual pleasure

Postby Spiny Norman » Sun Mar 24, 2013 12:40 pm

"My religion is very simple - my religion is ice-cream."
Dairy Lama

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Alex123
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Re: No inherent sensual pleasure

Postby Alex123 » Sun Mar 24, 2013 12:40 pm

"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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Alex123
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Re: No inherent sensual pleasure

Postby Alex123 » Sun Mar 24, 2013 4:33 pm

Also what I am thinking:

Why do we do what we do? What pushes us? Pain, suffering, etc! For example if one is hungry (painful bodily feeling) one is moved to search for food and to eat it.

If one is thirsty, one is forced to search for water and to drink it.
If one feels cold, one is forced to put on more clothes, raise the rooms temperature, or to drink hot tea, etc.

When one sits motionless long enough, the physical pain will force one to change posture.
Walking long distances or prolonged standing will force one to sit or lie down to relieve the pain of exertion.

Problem will force one to look for a solution.
Burning question can force one's mind to think about an answer.

If (hypothetical situation for the sake of argument) everything was absolutely perfect and complete, then why would one have to change anything?
"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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Re: No inherent sensual pleasure

Postby Samma » Sun Mar 24, 2013 6:57 pm



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