Autonomous Breathing?

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
danieLion
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Re: Autonomous Breathing?

Post by danieLion »

Mojo wrote:Well, I haven't died in my sleep yet. *knock wood*
Good point. I personally find contemplation of the voluntary/involuntary distinction very conducive to samadhi when I do anapanasati. But your're right, when I'm sleeping, it's not even on my radar--or any other time either. I would add though that anapanasati implies an exploration of autonomous breathing at every "step." In my opinion, it seems to culminate in "step" 16.
pegembara
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Re: Autonomous Breathing?

Post by pegembara »

alan... wrote:i struggle with this as well.

for me what happens is i get into a super deep state of meditation where everything fades but awareness of my mind, then i notice i'm not breathing! and so i try to ignore it, i still don't breathe, try to ignore, no breath, and finally, i just breathe. it's weird. not sure how to get around this.
Watch the presence and/or absence of breath.
Once the mind is at peace, the breath will diminish, the body will become relaxed, the mind will become subtle. They will be in a state of balance until it will seem as if there is no breath, but nothing happens to you. When you reach this point, don't panic, don't get up and run out, because you think you've stopped breathing. It just means that your mind is at peace. You don't have to do anything. Just sit there and look at whatever is present. Ajan Chah

http://www.ajahnchah.org/book/Just_Do_It_1_2.php
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
daverupa
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Re: Autonomous Breathing?

Post by daverupa »

Mojo wrote:I'm not sure if I should keep it voluntary or try to move my awareness out a bit so that I can observe my breathing while in it's involuntary state if possible.
It seems to me that the instructions call for sati which isn't involved, but just watches. The breath, during anapanasati, forms a backdrop to whatever step is engaged, acting as a metronome with respect to noticing arising and passing away in terms of each satipatthana.

Step four, which calls for calming kaya-sankhara, isn't an effort over the breath but rather a retreat away from involvement with any aspect of the body, breath or otherwise. Prior to this, step three lumped these all together in preparation.

Step one involves voluntary breathing, usually, but as volition turns away from breathing it becomes shallower, and/or less frequent, more relaxed, etc., which is when it turns to what can be called a short breath, watched as step two. Being withdrawn in this way facilitates the lumping of the next step; the overall direction is away from involvement.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Mojo
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Re: Autonomous Breathing?

Post by Mojo »

Thank you Dave. That makes sense to me.
Samma
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Re: Autonomous Breathing?

Post by Samma »

daverupa wrote:Step one involves voluntary breathing, usually, but as volition turns away from breathing it becomes shallower, and/or less frequent, more relaxed, etc., which is when it turns to what can be called a short breath, watched as step two. Being withdrawn in this way facilitates the lumping of the next step; the overall direction is away from involvement.
That is one interpretation, not a bad one. Thanssario's take is kind of opposite:
"Because steps 1 and 2 are not described as “trainings,” we can infer that in the beginning stages of familiarizing yourself with the breath you don’t consciously try to adjust it. You simply try to discern variations in the breath. The same principle would appear to apply to questions of whether the breath is fast or slow, shallow or deep, heavy or light." Nonetheless, he would say that the overall direction is one away from fabrication, but one first has to fabricate things in a skillful way before dropping them. For him, asking this question of voluntary vs involuntary shows that you have a role in the process. Involuntariness would be a particular perception, and one he probably would not consider particularly skillful. That is the default after all.
"non-reactivity—whether termed “mindfulness” or “equanimity”—is something willed through intention. To assume that either mindfulness or equanimity is unfabricated prevents the mind from seeing how it’s actually fabricating these qualities in the present moment."

Part of Mindfulness in plain English on control:
Make no attempt to control the breath. This is not a breathing exercise of the sort done in Yoga. Focus on the natural and spontaneous movement of the breath. Don't try to regulate it or emphasize it in any way. Most beginners have some trouble in this area. In order to help themselves focus on the sensation, they unconsciously accentuate their breathing. The results is a forced and unnatural effort that actually inhibits concentration rather than helping it. Don't increase the depth of your breath or its sound. This latter point is especially important in group meditation. Loud breathing can be a real annoyance to those around you. Just let the breath move naturally, as if you were asleep. Let go and allow the process to go along at its own rhythm.

This sounds easy, but it is trickier than you think. Do not be discouraged if you find your own will getting in the way. Just use that as an opportunity to observe the nature of conscious intention. Watch the delicate interrelation between the breath, the impulse to control the breath and the impulse to cease controlling the breath. You may find it frustrating for a while, but it is highly profitable as a learning experience, and it is a passing phase. Eventually, the breathing process will move along under its own steam. And you will feel no impulse to manipulate it. At this point you will have learned a major lesson about your own compulsive need to control the universe.
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convivium
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Re: Autonomous Breathing?

Post by convivium »

it goes from mundane breath in and out to breath energy throughout.....
Just keep breathing in and out like this. Don't be interested in anything else. It doesn't matter even if someone is standing on their head with their ass in the air. Don't pay it any attention. Just stay with the in-breath and the out-breath. Concentrate your awareness on the breath. Just keep doing it. http://www.ajahnchah.org/book/Just_Do_It_1_2.php
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