S.N Goenka

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Re: S.N Goenka

Postby Billymac29 » Tue Mar 26, 2013 9:56 pm

convivium wrote:
That's your opinion
that's the regional expert on theravada buddhism's (ajahn thanissaro's) statement, based on what is in the suttas.

That's a bold face lie.... Thanissaro never mentioned Goenka in such manners....
One can ask the venerable if one wishes
"whatever one frequently thinks and ponders upon will be the inclination of one's mind"
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Re: S.N Goenka

Postby Billymac29 » Tue Mar 26, 2013 9:57 pm

Ben wrote:With respect, I don't think you know what you are talking about.

i agree
"whatever one frequently thinks and ponders upon will be the inclination of one's mind"
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Re: S.N Goenka

Postby convivium » Tue Mar 26, 2013 9:59 pm

Please dont answer this question... It is rhetorical.
there's no question (maybe just a claim you are clinging to or don't want challenged). i'm not trying to tear you away from the goenka people. however, they are effectively saying that these teachings are either unnecessary, or useless. the only point i am making is that they would not be included in the suttas, if they were unnecessary or useless. different people have different proclivities, and the buddha of the suttas taught different methods to different people accordingly. that's all.
Just keep breathing in and out like this. Don't be interested in anything else. It doesn't matter even if someone is standing on their head with their ass in the air. Don't pay it any attention. Just stay with the in-breath and the out-breath. Concentrate your awareness on the breath. Just keep doing it. http://www.ajahnchah.org/book/Just_Do_It_1_2.php
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Re: S.N Goenka

Postby convivium » Tue Mar 26, 2013 10:01 pm

That's a bold face lie.... Thanissaro never mentioned Goenka in such manners....
One can ask the venerable if one wishes

yeah i'm lying on a buddhist forum.
Just keep breathing in and out like this. Don't be interested in anything else. It doesn't matter even if someone is standing on their head with their ass in the air. Don't pay it any attention. Just stay with the in-breath and the out-breath. Concentrate your awareness on the breath. Just keep doing it. http://www.ajahnchah.org/book/Just_Do_It_1_2.php
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Re: S.N Goenka

Postby Billymac29 » Tue Mar 26, 2013 10:07 pm

convivium wrote:he 'ignores' and rules out a lot of teachings.


If I call Ven Thanissaro, he's gonna tell me that he said these exact words about SN Goenka????... Considering Thanissaro never studied under Goenka, I'm gonna assume his answer is going to be "no"
"whatever one frequently thinks and ponders upon will be the inclination of one's mind"
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Re: S.N Goenka

Postby convivium » Tue Mar 26, 2013 10:10 pm

if you don't sound crazy, and ask for an opinion as to whether he thinks you should practice in the goenka tradition, then you'll get a response to that effect.
Just keep breathing in and out like this. Don't be interested in anything else. It doesn't matter even if someone is standing on their head with their ass in the air. Don't pay it any attention. Just stay with the in-breath and the out-breath. Concentrate your awareness on the breath. Just keep doing it. http://www.ajahnchah.org/book/Just_Do_It_1_2.php
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Re: S.N Goenka

Postby vidar » Tue Mar 26, 2013 10:12 pm

convivium wrote:
That's a bold face lie.... Thanissaro never mentioned Goenka in such manners....
One can ask the venerable if one wishes

yeah i'm lying on a buddhist forum.

Then put here the exact quote of Ven. Thanissaro mentioned Goenka, can you do that convivium?
All the world is on fire, All the world is burning, All the world is ablaze, All the world is quaking. That which does not quake or blaze, That to which worldlings do not resort, Where there is no place for Mara:That is where my mind delights. (SN 5.7)

By degrees, little by little,
from moment to moment,
the wise purify themselves,
as a smith purifies silver.
—Dhammapada 239
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Re: S.N Goenka

Postby convivium » Tue Mar 26, 2013 10:15 pm

no, because i asked him in person. however, it's readily evident in the breadth of his teachings and the way he relates to jhana.
Just keep breathing in and out like this. Don't be interested in anything else. It doesn't matter even if someone is standing on their head with their ass in the air. Don't pay it any attention. Just stay with the in-breath and the out-breath. Concentrate your awareness on the breath. Just keep doing it. http://www.ajahnchah.org/book/Just_Do_It_1_2.php
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Re: S.N Goenka

Postby lojong1 » Tue Mar 26, 2013 10:16 pm

convivium wrote:...they are effectively saying that these teachings are either unnecessary, or useless.

Quotes might be helpful alongside any chinese whispers. What made you think they are effectively saying such?
If a practise is outside his area of expertise, then perhaps it would be best he not teach it?
Last edited by lojong1 on Tue Mar 26, 2013 10:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: S.N Goenka

Postby convivium » Tue Mar 26, 2013 10:19 pm

something about this discussion is worth mentioning. people only get inflammatory (e.g. accusing others of lying) when there is vulnerability in their beliefs.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
Just keep breathing in and out like this. Don't be interested in anything else. It doesn't matter even if someone is standing on their head with their ass in the air. Don't pay it any attention. Just stay with the in-breath and the out-breath. Concentrate your awareness on the breath. Just keep doing it. http://www.ajahnchah.org/book/Just_Do_It_1_2.php
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Re: S.N Goenka

Postby polarbuddha101 » Tue Mar 26, 2013 10:22 pm

Just to chime in here. It seems that every Theravada buddhist teacher is gonna have some people in the Theravada who don't like the way they teach or think that what they teach is adhamma. How many really are teaching against what is dhamma is another matter that I don't have any answer to but I'd just point out that I've read criticisms on this forum leveled against Mahasi Sayadaw, Goenka, Thanissaro, Brahm, Vimalaramsi, Ajahn Chah, and probably some other teachers that aren't coming to mind right now. So I'd take any criticism you read here with a grain of salt.

:anjali:
"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."
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Re: S.N Goenka

Postby Billymac29 » Tue Mar 26, 2013 10:27 pm

convivium wrote:no, because i asked him in person. however, it's readily evident in the breadth of his teachings and the way he relates to jhana.

lol.. that statement sums it up for me... This is at best an exaggeration of something Thanissaro said. At worst, a horrid overstatement using your own interpretation of Thanissaro to criticise Goenka.
Thanissaro has not read nor studied enough of Goenka to make such a strong statement. That's not like him at all. I never studied under Goenka and I actually like Thanissaro's teachings and talks, but that statement is very heavy. I would never take it upon myself to make public what I assume the Venerable thinks of the Goenka teaching method.
"whatever one frequently thinks and ponders upon will be the inclination of one's mind"
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Re: S.N Goenka

Postby convivium » Tue Mar 26, 2013 10:30 pm

i keep having to make this point for some reason: i'm not saying goenka is teaching against the dhamma and neither would thanissaro. it's what he doesn't teach that is included in the suttas that's the issue; or rather, what he doesn't allow students to practice if they are to remain in the tradition to do longer or more advanced retreats.
Just keep breathing in and out like this. Don't be interested in anything else. It doesn't matter even if someone is standing on their head with their ass in the air. Don't pay it any attention. Just stay with the in-breath and the out-breath. Concentrate your awareness on the breath. Just keep doing it. http://www.ajahnchah.org/book/Just_Do_It_1_2.php
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Re: S.N Goenka

Postby convivium » Tue Mar 26, 2013 10:31 pm

lol.. that statement sums it up for me... This is at best an exaggeration of something Thanissaro said. At worst, a horrid overstatement using your own interpretation of Thanissaro to criticise Goenka.
Thanissaro has not read nor studied enough of Goenka to make such a strong statement. That's not like him at all. I never studied under Goenka and I actually like Thanissaro's teachings and talks, but that statement is very heavy. I would never take it upon myself to make public what I assume the Venerable thinks of the Goenka teaching method.
i haven't really made a strong statement.
Just keep breathing in and out like this. Don't be interested in anything else. It doesn't matter even if someone is standing on their head with their ass in the air. Don't pay it any attention. Just stay with the in-breath and the out-breath. Concentrate your awareness on the breath. Just keep doing it. http://www.ajahnchah.org/book/Just_Do_It_1_2.php
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Re: S.N Goenka

Postby convivium » Tue Mar 26, 2013 10:36 pm

That's not like him at all.

you obviously haven't lived with the guy.
Just keep breathing in and out like this. Don't be interested in anything else. It doesn't matter even if someone is standing on their head with their ass in the air. Don't pay it any attention. Just stay with the in-breath and the out-breath. Concentrate your awareness on the breath. Just keep doing it. http://www.ajahnchah.org/book/Just_Do_It_1_2.php
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Re: S.N Goenka

Postby Prasadachitta » Tue Mar 26, 2013 10:38 pm

convivium wrote:
Please dont answer this question... It is rhetorical.
there's no question (maybe just a claim you are clinging to or don't want challenged). i'm not trying to tear you away from the goenka people. however, they are effectively saying that these teachings are either unnecessary, or useless. the only point i am making is that they would not be included in the suttas, if they were unnecessary or useless. different people have different proclivities, and the buddha of the suttas taught different methods to different people accordingly. that's all.

There are a great many practices which could fall under "Theravada". How many would a teacher have to incorporate to be a "Teacher of Theravada"?
That was a question. I did not put a "?". oops.

Or answer it. Whatever.

If they are saying certain teachings are unnecessary or useless it would be valuable to talk about that in more detail. Perhaps by describing more precisely what you think is being taught so that others here can respond. It is still "Theravada". That is my only point. Since I do not describe my own practice as "Theravada" I am quite ambivalent about this point. I just think its accurate.

With Metta

Prasadachitta
"Beautifully taught is the Lord's Dhamma, immediately apparent, timeless, of the nature of a personal invitation, progressive, to be attained by the wise, each for himself." Anguttara Nikaya V.332
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Re: S.N Goenka

Postby Billymac29 » Tue Mar 26, 2013 11:11 pm

convivium wrote:
That's not like him at all.

you obviously haven't lived with the guy.

no haven't.. i guess your saying the venerable doesn't follow "right speech" and, instead, tends to gossiping and idle chatter.
"whatever one frequently thinks and ponders upon will be the inclination of one's mind"
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Re: S.N Goenka

Postby convivium » Tue Mar 26, 2013 11:14 pm

If they are saying certain teachings are unnecessary or useless it would be valuable to talk about that in more detail.

in a certain sense, they want everyone to cut right to the chase (straight to seeking insight into anicca, anatta, and dukkha through bodily sensations). there are people (like myself at age 18) for whom this would be premature. to use a phrase to the effect of what thanissaro said, i sort of lost myself before i had a sense of self. in result, i struggled for years with keeping the precepts, social anxiety, etc. looking back, i see that this could have been prevented if, for example, i wasn't worried about getting attached to jhana or wasting time by practicing the 32 parts. goenka intended that the tradition be self-sustaining and big. i think this is why everything the teachers say are supposed to be limited to repeating what he says. i think this is why it might be experienced as cult like or brainwashing by a lot of people.
Just keep breathing in and out like this. Don't be interested in anything else. It doesn't matter even if someone is standing on their head with their ass in the air. Don't pay it any attention. Just stay with the in-breath and the out-breath. Concentrate your awareness on the breath. Just keep doing it. http://www.ajahnchah.org/book/Just_Do_It_1_2.php
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Re: S.N Goenka

Postby convivium » Tue Mar 26, 2013 11:15 pm

no haven't.. i guess your saying the venerable doesn't follow "right speech" and, instead, tends to gossiping and idle chatter.
:coffee:
Just keep breathing in and out like this. Don't be interested in anything else. It doesn't matter even if someone is standing on their head with their ass in the air. Don't pay it any attention. Just stay with the in-breath and the out-breath. Concentrate your awareness on the breath. Just keep doing it. http://www.ajahnchah.org/book/Just_Do_It_1_2.php
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Re: S.N Goenka

Postby Billymac29 » Tue Mar 26, 2013 11:23 pm

convivium wrote:
lol.. that statement sums it up for me... This is at best an exaggeration of something Thanissaro said. At worst, a horrid overstatement using your own interpretation of Thanissaro to criticise Goenka.
Thanissaro has not read nor studied enough of Goenka to make such a strong statement. That's not like him at all. I never studied under Goenka and I actually like Thanissaro's teachings and talks, but that statement is very heavy. I would never take it upon myself to make public what I assume the Venerable thinks of the Goenka teaching method.
i haven't really made a strong statement.

Stating that Thanissaro says that Goenka
'ignores' and rules out a lot of teachings.
without him ever studying with Goenka is making Thanissaro out to be a close minded, overly judgemental, unintelligent, irrational monk. Is that what he is? Or else how would he know how and what Goenka teaches?
"whatever one frequently thinks and ponders upon will be the inclination of one's mind"
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