Bhikkuni rules

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Bhikkuni rules

Postby Cassandra » Wed Mar 27, 2013 3:38 pm

Do the 8 heavy duty bhikkuni rules appear in a sutta or is it in vinaya?

Also please tell me what sutta the buddha said Bhikkuni have the potential to destroy the religion.

Thanks
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Re: Bhikkuni rules

Postby David N. Snyder » Wed Mar 27, 2013 6:45 pm

They are both in the Vinaya, Culla Vagga

Now at that time, the Awakened One, the Blessed One, was staying near Kapilavatthu in the Banyan Grove. Then Mahāpajāpatī Gotamī went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed to him, stood to one side. As she was standing there, she said to him: "It would be good, venerable sir, if women might obtain the Going-forth from the home life into homelessness in the doctrine and discipline made known by the Tathāgata."

"Enough, Gotamī. Don't advocate women's Going-forth from the home life into homelessness in the doctrine and discipline made known by the Tathāgata (§)."

A second time... A third time she said to him: "It would be good, venerable sir, if women might obtain the Going-forth from the home life into homelessness in the doctrine and discipline made known by the Tathāgata."

"Enough, Gotamī. Don't advocate women's Going-forth from the home life into homelessness in the doctrine and discipline made known by the Tathāgata."

So Mahāpajāpatī Gotamī, (thinking,) "The Blessed One does not allow women's Going-forth from the home life into homelessness in the doctrine and discipline made known by the Tathāgata" — sad and unhappy, crying, her face in tears — bowed to the Blessed One, circumambulated him, keeping him to her right, and then went away.

The Blessed One, having stayed as long as he liked in Kapilavatthu, set out for Vesālī. After wandering in stages, he arrived at Vesālī. There he stayed near Vesālī at the Gabled Hall in the Great Wood.

Then Mahāpajāpatī Gotamī, having had her hair cut off, having donned ochre robes, set out for Vesālī together with a large number of Sakyan women. After wandering in stages, she arrived at Vesālī and went to the Gabled Hall in the Great Wood. Then she stood there outside the porch, her feet swollen, her limbs covered with dust, sad and unhappy, crying, her face in tears. Ven. Ānanda saw her standing there ... and so asked her, "Why, Gotamī, why are you standing here ... your face in tears?"

"Because, venerable sir, the Blessed One does not allow women's Going-forth from the home life into homelessness in the doctrine and discipline made known by the Tathāgata."

"In that case, Gotamī, stay right here for a moment (§) while I ask the Blessed One to allow women's Going-forth from the home life into homelessness in the doctrine and discipline made known by the Tathāgata."

Then Ven. Ānanda went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to the Blessed One: "Venerable sir, Mahāpajāpatī Gotamī is standing outside the porch ... her face in tears, because the Blessed One does not allow women's Going-forth from the home life into homelessness in the doctrine and discipline made known by the Tathāgata. It would be good if women might obtain the Going-forth from the home life into homelessness in the doctrine and discipline made known by the Tathāgata."

"Enough, Ānanda. Don't advocate women's Going-forth from the home life into homelessness in the doctrine and discipline made known by the Tathāgata."

A second time... A third time, Ven. Ānanda said, "... It would be good, venerable sir, if women might obtain the Going-forth from the home life into homelessness in the doctrine and discipline made known by the Tathāgata."

"Enough, Ānanda. Don't advocate women's Going-forth from the home life into homelessness in the doctrine and discipline made known by the Tathāgata."

Then the thought occurred to Ven. Ānanda, "The Blessed One does not allow women's Going-forth from the home life into homelessness in the doctrine and discipline made known by the Tathāgata. What if I were to find some other way to ask the Blessed One to allow women's Going-forth ..." So he said to the Blessed One, "Venerable sir, if a woman were to go forth from the home life into homelessness in the doctrine and discipline made known by the Tathāgata, would she be able to realize the fruit of stream-entry, once-returning, non-returning, or arahantship?"

"Yes, Ānanda, she would..."

"In that case, venerable sir, Mahāpajāpatī Gotamī has been of great service to the Blessed One. She was the Blessed One's aunt, foster mother, nurse, giver of milk. When the Blessed One's mother passed away, she gave him milk. It would be good if women might obtain the Going-forth from the home life into homelessness in the doctrine and discipline made known by the Tathāgata."

"Ānanda, if Mahāpajāpatī Gotamī accepts eight rules of respect, that will be her full Acceptance.

1) "A bhikkhunī who has been fully accepted even for more than a century must bow down, rise up from her seat, salute with hands palm-to-palm over her heart, and perform the duties of respect to a bhikkhu even if he has been fully accepted on that very day. This rule is to be honored, respected, revered, venerated, never to be transgressed as long as she lives.

2) "A bhikkhunī must not spend the rains in a residence where there is no bhikkhu (nearby)...

3) "Every half-month a bhikkhunī should expect two things from the Bhikkhu Saṅgha: (permission to) ask for the date of the uposatha and (permission to) approach for an exhortation...

4) "At the end of the Rains-residence, a bhikkhunī should invite (accusations from) both Saṅghas (the Bhikkhu and Bhikkhunī Saṅghas) on any of three grounds: what they have seen, what they have heard, what they have suspected...

5) "A bhikkhunī who has broken any of the rules of respect must undergo penance for half a month under both Saṅghas...

6) "Only after a trainee has trained in the six precepts for two years can she request Acceptance from both Saṅghas...

7) "A bhikkhu must not in any way be insulted or reviled by a bhikkhunī...

8) "From this day forward, the admonition of a bhikkhu by a bhikkhunī is forbidden, but the admonition of a bhikkhunī by a bhikkhu is not forbidden. This rule, too, is to be honored, respected, revered, venerated, never to be transgressed as long as she lives.

"If Mahāpajāpatī Gotamī accepts these eight rules of respect, that will be her full Acceptance."

Then Ven. Ānanda, having learned the eight rules of respect in the Blessed One's presence, went to Mahāpajāpatī Gotamī and, on arrival, said to her, "Gotamī, if you accept these eight rules of respect, that will be your full Acceptance..."

"Ven. Ānanda, just as if a young woman — or man — fond of ornamentation, having been given a garland of lotuses or jasmine or scented creepers, having accepted it in both hands, were to place it on her head, in the same way I accept the eight rules of respect, never to transgress them as long as I live."

Then Ven. Ānanda returned to the Blessed One and, having bowed down, sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said, "Venerable sir, Mahāpajāpatī Gotamī has accepted the eight rules of respect. The Blessed One's foster mother is fully accepted."

"But, Ānanda, if women had not obtained the Going-forth from the home life into homelessness in the doctrine and discipline made known by the Tathāgata, the holy life would have lasted long, the true Dhamma would have lasted 1,000 years. But now that they have gotten to go forth... this holy life will not last long, the true Dhamma will last only 500 years. Just as a clan in which there are many women and few men is easily plundered by robbers and thieves, in the same way, in whatever doctrine and discipline women get to go forth, the holy life does not last long... Just as a man might make an embankment in advance around a great reservoir to keep the waters from overflowing, in the same way I have set forth in advance the eight rules of respect for bhikkhunīs that they are not to transgress as long as they live." — Cv.X.1
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Re: Bhikkuni rules

Postby LonesomeYogurt » Wed Mar 27, 2013 7:34 pm

Gain and loss, status and disgrace,
censure and praise, pleasure and pain:
these conditions among human beings are inconstant,
impermanent, subject to change.

Knowing this, the wise person, mindful,
ponders these changing conditions.
Desirable things don’t charm the mind,
undesirable ones bring no resistance.

His welcoming and rebelling are scattered,
gone to their end,
do not exist.
- Lokavipatti Sutta

Stuff I write about things.
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Re: Bhikkuni rules

Postby manas » Thu Mar 28, 2013 12:28 am



...and I believe there'd be quite a few people who would agree with you regarding that, LY.

In peace :anjali:
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Re: Bhikkuni rules

Postby Cassandra » Thu Mar 28, 2013 3:06 am

Wow thank you all. I think I remember there was a sutta where the Buddha said Ananda that bhikkuni will spoil the dhamma like a disease spreading to rice plants or something. :shrug:
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Re: Bhikkuni rules

Postby BlackBird » Thu Mar 28, 2013 3:33 am

What are these 6 precepts mentioned? Are they just the standard 5 + celibacy? And why not have the usual 8 that anagarikas follow?
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta
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Re: Bhikkuni rules

Postby Cittasanto » Thu Mar 28, 2013 5:29 am

BlackBird wrote:What are these 6 precepts mentioned? Are they just the standard 5 + celibacy? And why not have the usual 8 that anagarikas follow?

the Anagarika is a relitively new institution, although a version of them is found in the canon there is a difference as the Anagarika is a form of training to be a monastic.
the six rules are not detailed in the canon, that I could see, but they are the first six of the eight precepts without celibacy from what I could gather from footnotes and other works on the precepts. I think it is with in the nuns rules themselves that the followers of these rules are mentioned specifically, but I didn't try to get more info than was imediately available that day.
1. Panatipata veramani sikkhapadam samadiyami
I undertake the precept to refrain from destroying living creatures.
2. Adinnadana veramani sikkhapadam samadiyami
I undertake the precept to refrain from taking that which is not given.
3. Kamesu micchacara veramani sikkhapadam samadiyami
I undertake the precept to refrain from sexual misconduct.
4. Musavada veramani sikkhapadam samadiyami
I undertake the precept to refrain from incorrect speech.
5. Suramerayamajja pamadatthana veramani sikkhapadam samadiyami
I undertake the precept to refrain from intoxicating drinks and drugs which lead to carelessness.
6. Vikalabhojana veramani sikkhapadam samadiyami
I undertake the precept to refrain from eating at the forbidden time (i.e., after noon).

The followers of these would of been married women who had not as yet given birth so were still unable to leave their husband. or at-least that is the view I remember being explained.
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Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: Bhikkuni rules

Postby BlackBird » Thu Mar 28, 2013 5:32 am

Surely it's more than sexual misconduct - Surely it's celibacy.
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta
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Re: Bhikkuni rules

Postby Cittasanto » Thu Mar 28, 2013 6:10 am

BlackBird wrote:Surely it's more than sexual misconduct - Surely it's celibacy.

just looking for some better info on that, and like I said I didn't look too closely into it.
https://sites.google.com/site/sikkhamana/6rules
looks like I was wrong there :)

I may of been mixing them up with another precept holder but without the resources I won't be able to check who it is or the source of the info :(

EDIT have a look at the married or maided tab https://sites.google.com/site/sikkhaman ... umaribhuta I may of confused some of the info originally :(
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
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Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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