Dry Anapanasati?

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Dry Anapanasati?

Postby Mojo » Thu Mar 28, 2013 6:02 pm

Are there teachers who teach Anapanasati as a means of dry Insight Meditation? For the purpose of this inquiry, a practice may include the vipassana jhanas and still be considered dry.

Thank you.

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Re: Dry Anapanasati?

Postby Bhikkhu Pesala » Thu Mar 28, 2013 6:48 pm

I don't know about any contemporary teachers, but you can read the Ledi Sayādaw's Manual of Respiration
AIM WebsitePāli FontsIn This Very LifeBuddhist ChroniclesSoftware (Upasampadā: 24th June, 1979)
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Re: Dry Anapanasati?

Postby convivium » Thu Mar 28, 2013 6:53 pm

The Four Frames of Reference
"And how is mindfulness of in-&-out breathing developed & pursued so as to bring the four frames of reference to their culmination?

"[1] On whatever occasion a monk breathing in long discerns, 'I am breathing in long'; or breathing out long, discerns, 'I am breathing out long'; or breathing in short, discerns, 'I am breathing in short'; or breathing out short, discerns, 'I am breathing out short'; trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&... out sensitive to the entire body'; trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&...out calming bodily fabrication': On that occasion the monk remains focused on the body in & of itself — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. I tell you, monks, that this — the in-&-out breath — is classed as a body among bodies, which is why the monk on that occasion remains focused on the body in & of itself — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world.

"[2] On whatever occasion a monk trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&...out sensitive to rapture'; trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&...out sensitive to pleasure'; trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&...out sensitive to mental fabrication'; trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&...out calming mental fabrication': On that occasion the monk remains focused on feelings in & of themselves — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. I tell you, monks, that this — careful attention to in-&-out breaths — is classed as a feeling among feelings,[6] which is why the monk on that occasion remains focused on feelings in & of themselves — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world.

"[3] On whatever occasion a monk trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&...out sensitive to the mind'; trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&...out satisfying the mind'; trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&...out steadying the mind'; trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&...out releasing the mind': On that occasion the monk remains focused on the mind in & of itself — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. I don't say that there is mindfulness of in-&-out breathing in one of lapsed mindfulness and no alertness, which is why the monk on that occasion remains focused on the mind in & of itself — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world.

"[4] On whatever occasion a monk trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&...out focusing on inconstancy'; trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&...out focusing on dispassion'; trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&...out focusing on cessation'; trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&...out focusing on relinquishment': On that occasion the monk remains focused on mental qualities in & of themselves — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. He who sees with discernment the abandoning of greed & distress is one who watches carefully with equanimity, which is why the monk on that occasion remains focused on mental qualities in & of themselves — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world.

"This is how mindfulness of in-&-out breathing is developed & pursued so as to bring the four frames of reference to their culmination.

not that i know of; but if you are worried about getting attached to jhana, then i'd recommend, inspired by thanissaro, that you read the suttas more.
Just keep breathing in and out like this. Don't be interested in anything else. It doesn't matter even if someone is standing on their head with their ass in the air. Don't pay it any attention. Just stay with the in-breath and the out-breath. Concentrate your awareness on the breath. Just keep doing it. http://www.ajahnchah.org/book/Just_Do_It_1_2.php
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Re: Dry Anapanasati?

Postby Samma » Thu Mar 28, 2013 7:29 pm

Terms:
bare insight (sukkha-vipassanā)
one who has pure insight as his vehicle. (suddha-vipassanā-yānika)

I take dry to mean without jhana.
Thus dry vipassana jhana is a contradiction.

Here is Bhikku Bodhi on the dividing line. Others may disagree
http://www.budsas.org/ebud/ebdha267.htm
Those who assert that jhāna is necessary for the attainment of stream-entry usually insist that a mundane (or form-sphere) jhāna must be secured before one can enter the supramundane path. Those who defend the dry-insight approach hold that a mundane jhāna is not indispensable, that a lower degree of concentration suffices as a basis for the cultivation of insight and the attainment of the path. Both parties usually agree that jhāna is part of the actual path experience itself. The issue that divides them is whether the concentration in the preliminary portion of the path must include a jhāna.
Last edited by Samma on Thu Mar 28, 2013 8:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dry Anapanasati?

Postby Mojo » Thu Mar 28, 2013 7:42 pm

How about Larry Rosenberg? Per his page at Dharmaseed.org:

http://www.dharmaseed.org/teacher/106/

The method I use most in teaching is anapanasati or mindfulness with breathing. Breath awareness supports us while we investigate the entire mind-body process. It helps calm the mindand gives us a graceful entry into a state of choiceless awareness--a place without agendas, where we are not for or against whatever turns up in the moment.


I listened to the first two sections of his talks, "The Way Of The Breath - Anapanasati as a complete meditation practice," and so far what he is teaching seems to be very similar to my understanding of Silent Illumination. I plan on listening to the rest of this particular set of talks, and think I'll see if I can get my library to get his Breath by Breath book.

Thanks,

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Re: Dry Anapanasati?

Postby Mojo » Thu Mar 28, 2013 8:04 pm

I hope this thread does not turn into a discussion about the nature of dry meditation. This is why I qualified my question to include vipassana jhana. I could have instead qualified it to just specifically exclude the absorption jhanas.
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Re: Dry Anapanasati?

Postby Samma » Thu Mar 28, 2013 8:47 pm

It seems you want assume a contradiction in your post. And though your thread title and content includes the word "dry" you don't want to talk about "nature of dry"
What exactly are you asking? Maybe more than a couple sentences would help?
:thinking:
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Re: Dry Anapanasati?

Postby Mojo » Thu Mar 28, 2013 9:11 pm

Samma wrote:It seems you want assume a contradiction in your post. And though your thread title and content includes the word "dry" you don't want to talk about "nature of dry"
What exactly are you asking? Maybe more than a couple sentences would help?
:thinking:


Samma, I'd like to find out if there are teachers who use Anapanasati to teach vipassanā-bhāvanā. If you know of any, please let me know who they are.

Thank you.

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Re: Dry Anapanasati?

Postby mikenz66 » Fri Mar 29, 2013 4:47 am

Mojo wrote:I hope this thread does not turn into a discussion about the nature of dry meditation. This is why I qualified my question to include vipassana jhana. I could have instead qualified it to just specifically exclude the absorption jhanas.

Well, I guess that's anyone who teaches mindfulness of breathing in a way that does not lead to strong (Visuddhimagga or Ajahn Brahm-style) absorption. There are thousands of teachers doing that, the vast majority of lay and monastic teachers in the West that I'm aware of do that, I think. Roughly speaking, my understanding is that any approach that treats objects that come up other than the breath as something you investigate, rather than just dismiss, in order to be able to return to focussing on the breath, would be a non-absorption practice.

:anjali:
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Re: Dry Anapanasati?

Postby alan... » Fri Mar 29, 2013 7:47 pm

Mojo wrote:Are there teachers who teach Anapanasati as a means of dry Insight Meditation? For the purpose of this inquiry, a practice may include the vipassana jhanas and still be considered dry.

Thank you.

Mojo


i think this is a very important question considering the anapansati sutta makes no direct mention of "jhana". so i've always wondered this myself.
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Re: Dry Anapanasati?

Postby Samma » Fri Mar 29, 2013 9:31 pm

Yes, I would echo mikenz, most anapanasati teachers would probably say they are teaching clear seeing, the development of insight. I don't know much about Larry Rosenberg, but he is experienced, and I've heard some good things, so he's probably a good place to look.

Some of Sattipatthana - Analyno:
Subsequent to the first four steps of mindfulness of breathing, the Anapansati Sutta's contemplation scheme directs awareness to the experience of joy (piti) and happiness (sukha). Since these two are factors of absorption, their occurrence in this part of the sixteen steps has led the Visuddhimagga to the assumption that this progression refers exclusively to absorption experience.68 Possibly because of this assumption, even the first four steps of mindfulness of breathing in the Satipatthana Sutta hvae at times been identified as being no more than a concentration practice.69
Here it needs to be noted that the occurrence of joy (piti) and happiness (sukkha) as steps five and six in the scheme of the Anapansati Sutta does not necessarily require the experience of absorption, since both can occur apart from such attainment.70 According to a verse in the Dhammapada, for example, joy (piti) can arise as a result of insight meditation.71 Thus awareness of the breath whilst experiencing joy or happiness is not necessarily confined to retrospective analysis after emerging from an absorption attainment, nor to the stages of calmness mediation immediately preceding such attainment.
[...]
An examination of the context in which the sixteen steps are taught in the Anapansati Sutta supports this suggestion. According to the introductory section of the discourse the Buddha's rationale for giving this discourse was to demonstrate to a group of monks, who were already using the breath as a mediation object (possibly as a concentration exercise), how to develop it as a satipatthana.74 That is, the Buddha took up the breath as a mediation object in order to demonstrate how sati can naturally lead from mindfulness of breathing to a comprehensive awareness of feelings, mind, and dhammas, and hence to a development of all satipatthanas and to the arising of the seven awakening factors.75 Thus the main purpose of the Buddha's exposition was to broaden the scope of mindfulness of breathing from awareness of the bodily phenomenon breath to awareness of feelings, mind, and dhammas, and in this way employ it as a means to gain insight.76 In view of this it seems reasonable to conclude that the purpose of the sixteen steps of mindfulness of breathing described in the Anapansati Sutta, and by implication the purpose of the four steps of mindfulness of breathing in the Satipatthana Sutta, is not restricted to the development of concentration, but covers both calm and insight.


Thanissaro considers them together, while those more based in commentaries may tend to separate the aspects:
It's obvious that samatha and vipassana are not separate paths of practice, but instead are complementary ways of relating to the present moment: samatha provides a sense of ease in the present; vipassana, a clear-eyed view of events as they actually occur, in and of themselves. It's also obvious why the two qualities need to function together in mastering jhana.

Broadly speaking, the first 3tetrads of anapanasati are mostly samatha, and the last one mostly vipassana. I suppose any practice of anapanasati that is not jhana can be considered dry. As to necessity of jhana, views differ see Bhikku Bodhi above.

May want to see these threads:
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=7239
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=41&t=7308
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=1631

Hope this was helpful.
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Re: Dry Anapanasati?

Postby Goofaholix » Sat Mar 30, 2013 4:48 am

As has already been pointed out most teachers of anapanasati that western laypeople have access to teach this way.

For a teaching giving the two paths as options see Ajahn Buddhadasa's teaching on anapanasati.
"Proper effort is not the effort to make something particular happen. It is the effort to be aware and awake each moment." - Ajahn Chah
"When we see beyond self, we no longer cling to happiness. When we stop clinging, we can begin to be happy." - Ajahn Chah
"Know and watch your heart. It’s pure but emotions come to colour it." — Ajahn Chah
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Re: Dry Anapanasati?

Postby Samma » Sat Mar 30, 2013 4:58 am

alan... wrote:i think this is a very important question considering the anapansati sutta makes no direct mention of "jhana". so i've always wondered this myself.


I came across this again, and thought you would like to see:
Generally there tends to be a somewhat curious distance in the Suttas between the subjective and objective side of meditation. For example, the Suttas describe jhana in terms of the subjective mental qualities, and elsewhere describe various meditation objects that are intended to develop jhana, yet they virtually never speak of, say, 'anapanasati jhana' (but we do have 'anapanasati samadhi'), or ' kasina jhana' (although there is a slightly dubious reference to 'compassion jhana'.) This distance is not comprehensively bridged until the Dhammasangani. So satipatthana, being thus more 'grounded ' and specific, fulfils an important practical function in the path. The implication seems to be that the particular meditation objects here are an intrinsic and hence non-optional part of the path. It seems that all mediators must develop at least some of the satipatthana practices. Meditation subjects outside of the satipatthana scheme are very frequently taught in the Suttas, notably the divine abidings and the six recollections , but they are apparently not so essential; however, the feelings, mindstates, and dhammas associated with them may obviously be treated under satipatthana. This crossover 'objective' aspect of satipatthana make it somewhat of an odd man out in the 37 wings to enlightenment, and we shall repeatedly see resulting ambiguities and incongruities emerging in the later attempts to thoroughly systemaize these groups. (Sujato, A Hitory of Mindfulness, p 112-3)
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Re: Dry Anapanasati?

Postby manas » Sun Mar 31, 2013 10:56 pm

Considering this passage from the Samaññaphala Sutta:

"In the same way, when these five hindrances are not abandoned in himself, the monk regards it as a debt, a sickness, a prison, slavery, a road through desolate country. But when these five hindrances are abandoned in himself, he regards it as unindebtedness, good health, release from prison, freedom, a place of security. Seeing that they have been abandoned within him, he becomes glad. Glad, he becomes enraptured. Enraptured, his body grows tranquil. His body tranquil, he is sensitive to pleasure. Feeling pleasure, his mind becomes concentrated.

"Quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful mental qualities...

Evameva kho mahārāja bhikkhu yathā guṇaṃ yathā rogaṃ yathā bandhanāgāraṃ yathā dāsabyaṃ yathā kantāraddhānamaggaṃ evaṃ ime pañca nīvaraṇe appahīṇe attani samanupassati. Seyyathāpi mahārāja ānaṇyaṃ yathā ārogyaṃ yathā bandhanā mokkhaṃ yathā bhujissaṃ yathā khemantabhūmiṃ evameva kho mahārāja bhikkhu ime pañca nīvaraṇe pahīṇe attani samanupassati.

Tassime pañca nīvaraṇe pahīṇe attani samanupassato pāmojjaṃ jāyati. Pamuditassa pīti jāyati. Pītimanassa kāyo passambhati. Passaddhakāyo sukhaṃ vedeti. Sukhino cittaṃ samādhiyati.

So vivicceva kāmehi vivicca akusalehi dhammehi...


It seems that feelings of gladness, rapture and pleasure begin to arise when the hindrances have been abandoned, but before jhana has been entered, going by this description. Furthermore, I would guess that most of us here who have not as yet 'entered & remained' in jhana, have nevertheless experienced some measure of peace, gladness or rapture during meditation already - whatever 'school' of practice one is studying under. Even without jhana, I think it can happen. What do others think?

Peace :anjali:
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Re: Dry Anapanasati?

Postby polarbuddha101 » Mon Apr 01, 2013 4:08 am

manas wrote:
It seems that feelings of gladness, rapture and pleasure begin to arise when the hindrances have been abandoned, but before jhana has been entered, going by this description. Furthermore, I would guess that most of us here who have not as yet 'entered & remained' in jhana, have nevertheless experienced some measure of peace, gladness or rapture during meditation already - whatever 'school' of practice one is studying under. Even without jhana, I think it can happen. What do others think?

Peace :anjali:


I agree wholeheartedly.
"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."
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Re: Dry Anapanasati?

Postby daverupa » Mon Apr 01, 2013 10:22 am

polarbuddha101 wrote:
manas wrote:
It seems that feelings of gladness, rapture and pleasure begin to arise when the hindrances have been abandoned, but before jhana has been entered, going by this description. Furthermore, I would guess that most of us here who have not as yet 'entered & remained' in jhana, have nevertheless experienced some measure of peace, gladness or rapture during meditation already - whatever 'school' of practice one is studying under. Even without jhana, I think it can happen. What do others think?

Peace :anjali:


I agree wholeheartedly.


Probably accounts for different "jhana" descriptions, too.
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: Dry Anapanasati?

Postby alan... » Thu Apr 04, 2013 3:50 am

Samma wrote:
alan... wrote:i think this is a very important question considering the anapansati sutta makes no direct mention of "jhana". so i've always wondered this myself.


I came across this again, and thought you would like to see:
Generally there tends to be a somewhat curious distance in the Suttas between the subjective and objective side of meditation. For example, the Suttas describe jhana in terms of the subjective mental qualities, and elsewhere describe various meditation objects that are intended to develop jhana, yet they virtually never speak of, say, 'anapanasati jhana' (but we do have 'anapanasati samadhi'), or ' kasina jhana' (although there is a slightly dubious reference to 'compassion jhana'.) This distance is not comprehensively bridged until the Dhammasangani. So satipatthana, being thus more 'grounded ' and specific, fulfils an important practical function in the path. The implication seems to be that the particular meditation objects here are an intrinsic and hence non-optional part of the path. It seems that all mediators must develop at least some of the satipatthana practices. Meditation subjects outside of the satipatthana scheme are very frequently taught in the Suttas, notably the divine abidings and the six recollections , but they are apparently not so essential; however, the feelings, mindstates, and dhammas associated with them may obviously be treated under satipatthana. This crossover 'objective' aspect of satipatthana make it somewhat of an odd man out in the 37 wings to enlightenment, and we shall repeatedly see resulting ambiguities and incongruities emerging in the later attempts to thoroughly systemaize these groups. (Sujato, A Hitory of Mindfulness, p 112-3)


thought provoking, thank you.
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