Bad thoughts = Bad Karma?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
SamKR
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Re: Bad thoughts = Bad Karma?

Post by SamKR »

pegembara wrote:
Thoughts are not yours. If they were yours, you would be able to think only good thoughts and abandon bad ones. If you take thoughts to be yours, then you would be "creating" good/bad thoughts/karma. As long as you identify with your body and mind, you will commit unwholesome actions. You commit murder because of greed and hatred which can only come from a sense of self. "I like" "I hate".
And sense of self and appropriation (upadana) can come from greed and hatred (tanha).
If you are aware of murderous thoughts but don't identify with them, how could it be possible to act on them? :shrug:
Yes, when you loose sati and forget not to identify with murderous thoughts which are already there (if you did not remove).
If you think the hands that kill are not yours, you wouldn't have minded that they be chopped off, would you?
Yes, if someone is insane. There's vast difference between being insane and being enlightened (about no-self).
pegembara
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Re: Bad thoughts = Bad Karma?

Post by pegembara »

And sense of self and appropriation (upadana) can come from greed and hatred (tanha).
Yes - What drives greed and hatred is vedana (I like/hate). Contact causes vedana etc.

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And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
pegembara
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Re: Bad thoughts = Bad Karma?

Post by pegembara »

If you are aware of murderous thoughts but don't identify with them, how could it be possible to act on them?


Yes, when you loose sati and forget not to identify with murderous thoughts which are already there (if you did not remove).

Mindfulness is the path to the deathless. Heedlessness is the path to death. The mindful do not die;. But the heedless are as if dead already.

If you think the hands that kill are not yours, you wouldn't have minded that they be chopped off, would you?

Yes, if someone is insane. There's vast difference between being insane and being enlightened (about no-self).

Of course.
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
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manas
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Re: Bad thoughts = Bad Karma?

Post by manas »

Ron-The-Elder wrote: Bhikkhu Samahita seems to think that consciousness and mind are not produced by the brain itself, but is simply contained by the brain, relagating the brain to a mere container, like a beer bottle.

http://what-buddha-said.net/drops/V/What_is_Mind.htm

I think this simplistic. AIUI:What Buddha describes in DO is a process of physical effects (causes) being detected by sensory systems including organs and associated consciousness, which result in mental consciousness, which results in awareness. (But, I might be wrong.) :shrug: *** I would appreciate some input / guidance from our venerables as to the rightness of these interpretations. :coffee:
Hello Ron,

I'm quite sure that consciousness is not ever produced by the brain, or by any clever combination of material elements. I don't see how something immaterial could be produced by something material. That the body and consciousness are dependent on each other being present, for a being to exist - I can recall reading that. But yes let's get a Venerable's clarification if possible. Or one or another of our resident scholars :reading:

:anjali:
To the Buddha-refuge i go; to the Dhamma-refuge i go; to the Sangha-refuge i go.
Digity
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Re: Bad thoughts = Bad Karma?

Post by Digity »

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:Four Points to Bear in Mind (about Dependent Origination)
Absence of Striving
The third aspect of Dependent Origination is the absence of striving (avyāpāra). Ignorance causes mental formations without striving, and mental formations do not strive to create rebirth. Knowledge of this fact means insight into the absence of any agent or being (kāraka-puggala) who sees, hears, etc., and as such it frees us from ego-belief. However, as the Visuddhimagga says, the misinterpretation of this principle may turn one into a moral sceptic who accepts determinism and denies moral responsibility.

The non-volitional nature of phenomena is apparent to one who contemplates their ceaseless arising and dissolution, for one realises clearly that since they are conditioned, they do not act according to one’s wishes.
Unwholesome thoughts arise dependent on conditions. By undertaking and observing moral precepts, and by mental training in samatha and vipassanā, we can change the conditions.

Right Effort includes the effort to expel unwholesome mental states that have arisen, and to prevent the arising of unwholesome mental states that have not yet arisen.

It is wise to install a smoke alarm and fire extinguisher in your house before it catches fire, not after it has burned to the ground.
This is very true. In my original post I mentioned that i had negative thought towards someone who said something stupid towards me. However, I noticed some days I didn't have negative thoughts. Instead, I would have thoughts of compassion and forgiveness. Then on other days I would go back to having those negative thoughts. I found this strange, but when I looked more closely I realized that whether I had negative or positive thoughts depended on how I related to what the person said about me. If I related to it in a healthy way then I had more compassionate, forgiving thoughts. When I related to it in an unhealthy way then I had the negative thoughts arise. Ultimatley, it seems to depend on how I related to the experience that determined whether I set the stage for positive or negative thoughts. I'm ultimately responsible for how I relate to the world and so we do play a role in whether negative or positive thoughts take root.

When we walk the eigthfold path we're setting the stage for the more wholesome to take root and flourish. So yes, I agree with what you're saying. You need to install the smoke alarms before the fire. You also need to understand the need for smoke alarms in the first place. When it comes to our mental state most people don't.

Thank you Bhikkhu Pesala for the reply!
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ground
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Re: Bad thoughts = Bad Karma?

Post by ground »

Digity wrote:Sometimes something is on my mind that's really bothering me. It's usually has something to do with the way someone acted, which I disapproved of. Often times when I tell other people what happened thye agree that the person was wrong and it was stupid, etc. In these cases I often start having a lot of bad thoughts about the person thinking that they're stupid idiots, etc, etc, etc. I don't want to have these thoughts...I want to be more peaceful, but I can't control it or at least I currently can't control it. I kind of let my mind spew a lot of venom, but I know in the back of my mind it's not right or inline with the Dhamma. Am I creating a lot of negative karma here? I wasn't sure, because it's not like I'm fully intended to be mean towards these people...these thoughts and urges just arise. My intention is to not be this way, but I don't feel like I can control what's arising in the moment. Any advice on how to deal with this more wisely?
Try to focus on things that foster your self-confidence. If you are content and satisfied with yourself your negative thinking about others will diminish because the source is a sense of inferiority. :sage:
Digity
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Re: Bad thoughts = Bad Karma?

Post by Digity »

You know what...I realized 90% of the crap I worry about or am angry about is kind of stupid. I live in a privileged part of the world, have a good life and I spend my time mulling over what so-and-so said. I think I need to stop focusing my attention on these stupid issues and put my focus in a better place. :alien:
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ground
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Re: Bad thoughts = Bad Karma?

Post by ground »

Digity wrote:... I live in a privileged part of the world, have a good life and I spend my time mulling over what so-and-so said. ...
Yeah, that's the reason for buddhism in a privileged part of the world too. :sage:
Digity
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Re: Bad thoughts = Bad Karma?

Post by Digity »

I'm going to make an effort to complain less. It'll be part of my practice. Most people who live in a first world country have it well and need to shut up about their problems. There's people who are far worse off out there.
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BlackBird
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Re: Bad thoughts = Bad Karma?

Post by BlackBird »

Strengthening one's metta practice would be a strong catalyst for positive change in this case.
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta

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waimengwan
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Re: Bad thoughts = Bad Karma?

Post by waimengwan »

Whenever unwholesome thoughts arise, we should dispel them by wise reflection on the evil consequences of such thoughts, use bare attention to contemplate their three characteristics, or forcefully suppress them if necessary.
Thank you Bhikkhu Pesala for sharing, what are the three characteristics ? And if we suppress these thoughts won't it come back to bit us again, usually things that are suppressed works that way. Or we have to suppress until we find the right remedy / antidote. Please share thanks.
taintless
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Re: Bad thoughts = Bad Karma?

Post by taintless »

My friend,

Bad intention, is bad karma.

Not bad thoughts.
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Bhikkhu Pesala
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Re: Bad thoughts = Bad Karma?

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala »

waimengwan wrote:Thank you Bhikkhu Pesala for sharing, what are the three characteristics ? And if we suppress these thoughts won't it come back to bite us again, usually things that are suppressed work that way. Or we have to suppress until we find the right remedy / antidote. Please share thanks.
The three characteristics are impermanence (anicca), suffering (dukkha), and not-self (anattā).

See the Sabbāsava Sutta on the Āsavas that should be removed through rejection (= suppression). As long as the unwholesome roots are not destroyed by insight, unwholesome thoughts rooted in ill-will or lust may arise when conditions so conspire. Whenever they do arise they should be rejected, otherwise, we will follow them and the latent tendency to lust and ill-will will get strengthened. Could anyone observe the five precepts without suppressing the intention to do wrong? If one never had the slightest intention to break any of the five precepts, then one would already be a Stream-winner, for whom observing the five precepts is natural and stable morality.

It is the intention that characterises a thought as good or bad. Bad thoughts such as, "I want to seduce that man's wife," "I want to kill that man," "I don't believe there is any result of merely thinking bad thoughts," are the unwholesome thoughts of covetousness, ill-will, and wrong view.

Can anyone be content if they covet things that they don't own, or have to meet with people they cannot stand?
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Digity
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Re: Bad thoughts = Bad Karma?

Post by Digity »

taintless wrote:My friend,

Bad intention, is bad karma.

Not bad thoughts.
Yes, but if bad thoughts are a symptom of bad intentions then having bad thoughts could be an indication of underlying bad intentions.
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