Hello,
According to my understanding, Theravada Buddhism places the responsibility for awakening on each individual. In many other religious traditions, there is an "other power", like the Amida Buddha, Christ, etc, and by calling upon or entrusting ourselves to this power or entity, we receive a kind of grace that helps us move towards our spiritual goal. Is there anything even remotely resembling the idea of grace - help from outside of ourselves - in the Suttas or the writings of Theravada Buddhists that you know of?
Thanks in advance,
Steve
Grace in Buddhism?
Re: Grace in Buddhism?
Sotthī hontu nirantaraṃ - May you forever be well.
Re: Grace in Buddhism?
Kalyāṇa-mittatā aside, no.qoheleth wrote:Is there anything even remotely resembling the idea of grace - help from outside of ourselves - in the Suttas or the writings of Theravada Buddhists that you know of?
Not only NO, but HEAVENS NO!
The question alone betrays the ignorance of the questioner with regard to the subject matter. Seeking soteriological salve from someone other than oneself is pure delusion. Pure and simple.
In the Buddhadhamma, there is no salvation outside of the individual. What makes you think that anyone besides oneself is responsible for your life? For the choices you make? For the person you become while on this miserable earth?
I'm not castigating you. I'm asking you to think about these things. Seriously! And then look up, become familiar with, and contemplate the Four Noble Truths.
"The gift of truth exceeds all other gifts" — Dhammapada, v. 354 Craving XXIV
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Re: Grace in Buddhism?
No such notion in Buddha dhamma, kalyana mitta is nothing like the idea of grace.
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
Re: Grace in Buddhism?
It might be worthwhile unearthing another thread on Grace and Buddhism created by long-time DW member, Zavk.
It will have some interesting material germane to this line of enquiry.
kind regards,
Ben
It will have some interesting material germane to this line of enquiry.
kind regards,
Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725
Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global Relief • UNHCR
e: [email protected]..
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725
Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global Relief • UNHCR
e: [email protected]..
Re: Grace in Buddhism?
Link because Ben is lazy: http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 296#p82679B wrote:It might be worthwhile unearthing another thread on Grace and Buddhism created by long-time DW member, Zavk.
It will have some interesting material germane to this line of enquiry.
kind regards,
Ben
"What holds attention determines action." - William James
Re: Grace in Buddhism?
Some people talk of the deathless element, the unconditioned, etc. Perhaps this can sometimes be perceived as "other"?
_/|\_
Re: Grace in Buddhism?
Maybe not ongoing active help, but it is I believe worth reflecting on the good fortune that we have inherited. To be born in a time and place to hear the Buddha's teaching, to have favourable conditions for practice, whatever good health we have in body and mind, good friends, and so on. I don't remember doing anything to deserve these, even if according to some people I did. Left to my own devices without these things, I would have been more likely to dig myself deeper into a hole. My good fortune seems to be as much "outside myself" as many Christian conceptions of Grace.Is there anything even remotely resembling the idea of grace - help from outside of ourselves - in the Suttas or the writings of Theravada Buddhists that you know of?
Re: Grace in Buddhism?
There are ideas which are similar to how I understand grace in the way Theravada is practiced in Thailand. Boon (punna) which is normally translated as merit has connotations of good fortune. Barami (parami) is similar, meaning something like "having good qualties". It is possible to come in to contact with those who have parami, which would be seen as a blessing or good fortune (it rubs off). There is also the notion of sacred. And there is also a notion of power, which is associated with the triple gem and that which is sacred. You could also associate meditative states with grace, as they are not personal and are said to purify.
Last edited by Mr Man on Sat Mar 30, 2013 1:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Grace in Buddhism?
Not lazy, I am busy.Viscid wrote:Link because Ben is lazy: http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 296#p82679B wrote:It might be worthwhile unearthing another thread on Grace and Buddhism created by long-time DW member, Zavk.
It will have some interesting material germane to this line of enquiry.
kind regards,
Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725
Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global Relief • UNHCR
e: [email protected]..
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725
Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global Relief • UNHCR
e: [email protected]..
Re: Grace in Buddhism?
Dan74 wrote:Some people talk of the deathless element, the unconditioned, etc. Perhaps this can sometimes be perceived as "other"?
Views and opinions and conditioned thinking in general are "other".
.
Re: Grace in Buddhism?
Perhaps there is a Beginner's Forum I should have posed this question in? Is every newcomer here who asks an out-of-the-norm question called out for ignorance?! I have read and thought about the 4NT a great deal, actually. Anyway, I admit I am interested in this now in a fairly curious and academic sense. I ask in part because of something a friend of mine said once. He has attended several of the 10 day Goenka Vipassana retreats, and he quoted Goenka as saying something like: "The Dhamma wants you to be awakened," or "it begins to work with you", or something to that effect. I realize that he does not represent Theravada, but it made me think of the concept of grace, and while I have never encountered anything like it in my readings of Theravada Buddhism, I was curious to explore the issue a little with knowledgeable people. Maybe grace isn't quite the right word... and I certainly wasn't expecting to discover a mysterious divine savior in Theravada Buddhism! Perhaps I have completely misunderstood what my friend or Goenka meant...IanAnd wrote:Kalyāṇa-mittatā aside, no.qoheleth wrote:Is there anything even remotely resembling the idea of grace - help from outside of ourselves - in the Suttas or the writings of Theravada Buddhists that you know of?
Not only NO, but HEAVENS NO!
The question alone betrays the ignorance of the questioner with regard to the subject matter. Seeking soteriological salve from someone other than oneself is pure delusion. Pure and simple.
In the Buddhadhamma, there is no salvation outside of the individual. What makes you think that anyone besides oneself is responsible for your life? For the choices you make? For the person you become while on this miserable earth?
I'm not castigating you. I'm asking you to think about these things. Seriously! And then look up, become familiar with, and contemplate the Four Noble Truths.
EDIT: After re-reading my original question, I think I can better understand your response. I don't mean to be defensive.
Last edited by qoheleth on Sat Mar 30, 2013 12:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Grace in Buddhism?
there is a quote in buddhism that says, take care of mindfulness and mindfulness will take care of you. that seems to be what your thinking about.
Take care of mindfulness and mindfulness will take care of you.
Re: Grace in Buddhism?
Interesting. Thank you.Sam Vara wrote:Maybe not ongoing active help, but it is I believe worth reflecting on the good fortune that we have inherited. To be born in a time and place to hear the Buddha's teaching, to have favourable conditions for practice, whatever good health we have in body and mind, good friends, and so on. I don't remember doing anything to deserve these, even if according to some people I did. Left to my own devices without these things, I would have been more likely to dig myself deeper into a hole. My good fortune seems to be as much "outside myself" as many Christian conceptions of Grace.Is there anything even remotely resembling the idea of grace - help from outside of ourselves - in the Suttas or the writings of Theravada Buddhists that you know of?
Re: Grace in Buddhism?
Thank you, every one, for your thoughtful and helpful responses.