Buddhist text's true author identified as Thai woman

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
User avatar
Dan74
Posts: 4529
Joined: Sun Mar 01, 2009 11:12 pm
Location: Switzerland

Re: Buddhist text's true author identified as Thai woman

Post by Dan74 »

m0rl0ck wrote:The important thing to remember in this imo is that, however one views the authenticity of whatever document in question, its the authenticity of the insight and day to day practice that are important.
:goodpost:

Maybe this is relevant?
don't go by reports, by legends, by traditions, by scripture, by logical conjecture, by inference, by analogies, by agreement through pondering views, by probability, or by the thought, 'This contemplative is our teacher.' When you know for yourselves that, 'These qualities are skillful; these qualities are blameless; these qualities are praised by the wise; these qualities, when adopted & carried out, lead to welfare & to happiness' — then you should enter & remain in them.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
_/|\_
User avatar
Kusala
Posts: 1148
Joined: Sun Jan 23, 2011 11:02 am

Re: Buddhist text's true author identified as Thai woman

Post by Kusala »

Alex123 wrote:I have read quite a bit about analysis of earlier vs later suttas. Unfortunately we cannot know totally for sure what Buddha as historic person has actually said. We don't even know what dialects and when He spoke them.

Often there are unproven assumptions such as:
Buddha did or didn't teach complex philosophy, so very abstract suttas are earlier/later.

Linguistic analysis where earlier Pali words and grammatical forms imply that they are earlier, vs texts with later pali grammar.
The problem is that grammatical analysis can work when the sutta is sufficiently big and varied. If sutta is short and uses limited set of words, then we cannot judge. Also we do not know if the Buddha talked in later form of pali or earlier. He could also have used more archaic forms of pali. Later texts could also use more archaic forms of pali. Large texts could have material from different time periods.

We also have no voice recording of Buddha as historical person. We just have written texts that were first written centuries after the Buddha.

So I guess we need to get the message (let go of craving!) and develop wisdom as much as possible.
“Buddhism would remain what it is even if it were proved that the Buddha never lived.” - Christmas Humphreys
"He, the Blessed One, is indeed the Noble Lord, the Perfectly Enlightened One;
He is impeccable in conduct and understanding, the Serene One, the Knower of the Worlds;
He trains perfectly those who wish to be trained; he is Teacher of gods and men; he is Awake and Holy. "

--------------------------------------------
"The Dhamma is well-expounded by the Blessed One,
Apparent here and now, timeless, encouraging investigation,
Leading to liberation, to be experienced individually by the wise. "
User avatar
iforgotmyname
Posts: 46
Joined: Sat Mar 09, 2013 4:24 pm

Re: Buddhist text's true author identified as Thai woman

Post by iforgotmyname »

Alex123 wrote:
David N. Snyder wrote:Not in the Suttas. See: http://www.dhammawiki.com/index.php?title=4_Sights
Thank you for that link. Unfortunately there is a lot of mythological elements in Buddha's story, so much so, that I can only believe He existed - though I don't have proof that He did.

In MN36 it says that his mother and father were present when He went forth. He didn't sneak out of the palace, and no hints of wife and child:
before my enlightenment, when I was not enlightened, yet a seeker of enlightenment, it occurred to me: The household life is full of troubles and defilements. It is not possible to lead the completely pure holy life while living in a household. What if I shaved head and beard, donned yellow clothes and went forth. Even in the prime of youth, with black hair, against the wish of mother and father, when they were crying with tearing eyes, I shaved head and beard, donned yellow robes leaving the household became homeless.
http://metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/ ... ta-e1.html
In MN123, his mother was supposed to have died seven days after she gave birth to him
`Venerable sir I have heard these words from the Blessed One himself and you acknowledged them. "ânanda, seven days after the birth ofthe one aspiring enlightenment, the mother of the one aspiring enlightenment passed away and was born with the happy gods"
http://metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/ ... tta-e.html

And of course, we don't even know Buddha's name. At least not in Pali Canon. Buddha is a title. Gotama is name of clan.
Alex - in MN36 it clearly says that the Buddha utters the words "what if" and he's clearly teaching Saccaka the Jain - so he must be stating how "one" would think before one left his house and not necessarily about what went on when the Buddha himself decided to do just that - remember all of this is conversation with the aim of brining someone closer to understanding something.
"Why wouldn't it have, Aggivessana? Before my Awakening, when I was still an unawakened Bodhisatta, the thought occurred to me: 'Household life is confining, a dusty path. Life gone forth is the open air. It isn't easy, living in a home, to practice the holy life totally perfect, totally pure, a polished shell. What if I, having shaved off my hair & beard and putting on the ochre robe, were to go forth from the household life into homelessness?'

It could also very well mean how he had thought before he decided to leave: "how ones parents would think" in spirit, regardless of whether or not they are alive - and remember Buddha had a foster mother who became the first Buddhist nun, maybe it is her he had meant. So you see, don't take this stuff literally, and come to conclusions as a means to some end. We should use our reasoning, Buddha himself has always taught that.

I started reading RIchard Gombrich's book recently (someone here had posted a link to it somewhere - it's called How Buddhism Began). It's a good book, and in one section at least (I haven't read the whole thing, yet), he analyses how we should look at the Sutta's - he introduces the problems caused by language, its translation, the massive time periods it had taken to write these Suttas down, and reminds us to take into account what is said in the context of the time, the particular story and the processes that have taken place on the text we are reading today (in English, Chinese, even the original Pali one). While this may seem a little obvious, we don't always look at it this way - and it's hard to because we're so used to thinking what we read is what was meant.

None of this means all Sutta's a worthless or they are some how all lies. We shouldn't get stuck on the literal aspects of this stuff and come to conclusions, rather concentrate on the "spirit" of the words, and all of the Buddha's teachings as a whole.
User avatar
DNS
Site Admin
Posts: 17190
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 4:15 am
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada, Estados Unidos de América
Contact:

Re: Buddhist text's true author identified as Thai woman

Post by DNS »

Kusala wrote: “Buddhism would remain what it is even if it were proved that the Buddha never lived.” - Christmas Humphreys
Perhaps . . . in today's world, especially among Western-born convert Buddhists who are attracted to the self-help teachings of getting out of suffering. But if it would have been proven that the Buddha never lived in say, 100 CE, then I don't think it would have survived and made it to the 20th century. It is because the Buddhists in the Buddhist countries venerated and even worshiped the Buddha, that it stood the test of time, imo; not because of any magical power of worship, but so that it did not die out as just another old philosophy no longer in vogue.
User avatar
Alex123
Posts: 4035
Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2010 11:32 pm

Re: Buddhist text's true author identified as Thai woman

Post by Alex123 »

Thank you all for your replies.
Post Reply