Pali Term: Sati

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Re: Pali Term: Sati

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Apr 01, 2013 5:57 am

polarbuddha101 wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:But, alas, "remembering" just does not really adequately cover the whole of sati as it is actually used in the text, unless one is willing to start to broaden the meaning of "remembering" to give it the qualities of sati as found in the suttas.


Would you agree that remembrance combined with clear awareness covers the whole meaning of sati as found in the texts?
No. While Dmytro is to be commended for his efforts here, what is obvious in the responses counter to his position is that sati, all by itself, is a richly nuanced word and "remembrance" by itself, without significant qualifications or allowances of its nuances, does not cover it for sati. If you read through this thread, which is not too long that it cannot be easily done, you can see that, especially, ironically enough, with some of the references Dmytro quotes, such as Gethin and Jakes, and such quotes as: viewtopic.php?f=23&t=4299&start=20#p205438

And a few more point raised above:

viewtopic.php?f=23&t=4299&start=20#p205548

viewtopic.php?f=23&t=4299&start=40

viewtopic.php?f=23&t=4299&start=40#p205875

viewtopic.php?f=23&t=4299&start=80#p214404

viewtopic.php?f=23&t=4299&start=100#p215840

viewtopic.php?f=23&t=4299&start=160#p225716

Basically, what are the factors of sati as found in the suttas according to you? Because I think that what you consider to be sati I consider to be sati and sampajanna and that this may in fact be the only difference but I could be wrong so please elaborate if you would.
Much of what you are asking here, as the links show, has already been dealt with in this thread.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

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Re: Pali Term: Sati

Postby polarbuddha101 » Mon Apr 01, 2013 6:03 am

danieLion wrote:
polarbuddha101 wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:But, alas, "remembering" just does not really adequately cover the whole of sati as it is actually used in the text, unless one is willing to start to broaden the meaning of "remembering" to give it the qualities of sati as found in the suttas.


Would you agree that remembrance combined with clear awareness covers the whole meaning of sati as found in the texts?

No way. You'd have to ignore satipatthana, anapanasati, sammasati, etc....


I'm not ignoring those things, those are the things that one has to remember to be aware of, and to do so correctly.
"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."
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Re: Pali Term: Sati

Postby polarbuddha101 » Mon Apr 01, 2013 6:08 am

danieLion wrote:Exactly. What pb101's saying about sati could be said about most behaviors. Memory is a given. So if the Buddha wanted it to JUST mean memory or some synoym of memory I think he would have made it pliain that's what he was talking about. There's not much Nobility to merely not forgetting. It's not very profound to say not forgetting is important to The Path. Like...duhh!!! Thanks Captain Obvious. See what I mean?


I don't think you're fully appreciating how greatly deluded we are because we forget to stay fully aware of what's actually going on in the present moment.

"And what is the faculty of mindfulness? There is the case where a monk, a disciple of the noble ones, is mindful, highly meticulous, remembering & able to call to mind even things that were done & said long ago. He remains focused on the body in & of itself — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. He remains focused on feelings in & of themselves... the mind in & of itself... mental qualities in & of themselves — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. This is called the faculty of mindfulness.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."
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Re: Pali Term: Sati

Postby Dmytro » Mon Apr 01, 2013 6:25 am

polarbuddha101 wrote:
"He is mindful, able to remember & recollect what was done & said a long time ago.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html


http://www.dharmasalon.net/Writings/Min ... wisdom.pdf

http://www.dharmasalon.net/Audio/BMIMC% ... ulness.MP3

Remembrance really is a good translation for sati. In meditation, sati is remembering to stay aware/alert (sampajanna) of an aspect of experience in the present, e.g. remembering to stay aware of breathing as it is occurring in your experience.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... endas.html


Thank you for the great links, Polarbuddha :anjali:
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Re: Pali Term: Sati

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Apr 01, 2013 6:44 am

polarbuddha101 wrote:
http://www.dharmasalon.net/Writings/Min ... wisdom.pdf

Remembrance really is a good translation for sati. In meditation, sati is remembering to stay aware/alert (sampajanna) of an aspect of experience in the present, e.g. remembering to stay aware of breathing as it is occurring in your experience
I had missed this. Dmytro's comment on it caught my attention. In reading through Kearney's fine discussion, it is nice to see that it makes my point of how very nuanced sati is as it is used in the suttas. "Remembrance" would not be the first word I would choose to translate sati. Mindfulness works fairly well, and it helps to have a careful discussion such as Kearny's in mind when using it.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Pali Term: Sati

Postby polarbuddha101 » Mon Apr 01, 2013 6:58 am

Dmytro wrote:
Thank you for the great links, Polarbuddha :anjali:


No hay problemo.
"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."
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Re: Pali Term: Sati

Postby danieLion » Mon Apr 01, 2013 9:45 pm

polarbuddha101 wrote:Would you agree that remembrance combined with clear awareness covers the whole meaning of sati as found in the texts?

danieLion wrote:No way. You'd have to ignore satipatthana, anapanasati, sammasati, etc....


polarbuddha101 wrote:I'm not ignoring those things, those are the things that one has to remember to be aware of, and to do so correctly.

This is circular reasoning.
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Re: Pali Term: Sati

Postby danieLion » Mon Apr 01, 2013 9:54 pm

polarbuddha101 wrote:
danieLion wrote:Exactly. What pb101's saying about sati could be said about most behaviors. Memory is a given. So if the Buddha wanted it to JUST mean memory or some synoym of memory I think he would have made it pliain that's what he was talking about. There's not much Nobility to merely not forgetting. It's not very profound to say not forgetting is important to The Path. Like...duhh!!! Thanks Captain Obvious. See what I mean?


I don't think you're fully appreciating how greatly deluded we are because we forget to stay fully aware of what's actually going on in the present moment.

1) The Buddha didn't teach momentariness (there's a Topic here but I ain't looking for it cuz of the search glich).
2) By your (Dmytro's, Thanissaro's, etc...) comments, sati as recollection is recollection about things past, and "awareness" is a "bad" translation.
3) We're not so greatly deluded that we can't see that sati means much more than mere recollection as the Buddha taught it.
4) Some of use are more deluded than others.
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Re: Pali Term: Sati

Postby polarbuddha101 » Mon Apr 01, 2013 10:00 pm

danieLion wrote:
polarbuddha101 wrote:Would you agree that remembrance combined with clear awareness covers the whole meaning of sati as found in the texts?

danieLion wrote:No way. You'd have to ignore satipatthana, anapanasati, sammasati, etc....


polarbuddha101 wrote:I'm not ignoring those things, those are the things that one has to remember to be aware of, and to do so correctly.

This is circular reasoning.


No it isn't. I'm talking about the definition of a word not making a logical argument. I'm saying remembrance is sati and anapana sati is remembrance of breathing. It's all rather simple.
"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."
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Re: Pali Term: Sati

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Apr 01, 2013 10:04 pm

polarbuddha101 wrote:
No it isn't. I'm talking about the definition of a word not making a logical argument. I'm saying remembrance is sati and anapana sati is remembrance of breathing. It's all rather simple.
Yeah, so you are saying, but there isfar better reason to go with Kearny's far more nuanced reading on this than the overly simple and misleading "remembrance."
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Pali Term: Sati

Postby polarbuddha101 » Mon Apr 01, 2013 10:08 pm

danieLion wrote:
polarbuddha101 wrote:
danieLion wrote:Exactly. What pb101's saying about sati could be said about most behaviors. Memory is a given. So if the Buddha wanted it to JUST mean memory or some synoym of memory I think he would have made it pliain that's what he was talking about. There's not much Nobility to merely not forgetting. It's not very profound to say not forgetting is important to The Path. Like...duhh!!! Thanks Captain Obvious. See what I mean?


I don't think you're fully appreciating how greatly deluded we are because we forget to stay fully aware of what's actually going on in the present moment.

1) The Buddha didn't teach momentariness (there's a Topic here but I ain't looking for it cuz of the search glich).
2) By your (Dmytro's, Thanissaro's, etc...) comments, sati as recollection is recollection about things past, and "awareness" is a "bad" translation.
3) We're not so greatly deluded that we can't see that sati means much more than mere recollection as the Buddha taught it.
4) Some of use are more deluded than others.


1) I'm not referring to that doctrine. Go ahead and take out the word moment, it makes no difference. Call it the experienced present if you want.
2) It is recollection of the past and remembering to stay aware of the experienced present.
3) Just because sati means memory/remembrance/recollection doesn't mean that it isn't related to the rest of the path. In practice it has a very important and complex function because one has to remember so many things and remember how to do so many things and remember to stay fully present as you're doing them.
4) Indeed, but that has nothing to do with the meaning of sati and now I get the feeling you're just being snide which is rather unnecessary.
"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."
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Re: Pali Term: Sati

Postby polarbuddha101 » Mon Apr 01, 2013 10:11 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
polarbuddha101 wrote:
No it isn't. I'm talking about the definition of a word not making a logical argument. I'm saying remembrance is sati and anapana sati is remembrance of breathing. It's all rather simple.
Yeah, so you are saying, but there isfar better reason to go with Kearny's far more nuanced reading on this than the overly simple and misleading "remembrance."


I'm just saying that's what sati literally means. Kearney said it too although he said sati literally means memory. I'm not saying it's function isn't nuanced though or that it isn't related to being present because it is. But one has to remember and not forget to stay present in order to actually do so. And I am going with Kearney's reading I'm just saying that remembrance isn't a bad translation. ANY english translation of sati has to be qualified by understanding the context the word is used in.
"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."
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Re: Pali Term: Sati

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Apr 01, 2013 10:24 pm

polarbuddha101 wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
polarbuddha101 wrote:
No it isn't. I'm talking about the definition of a word not making a logical argument. I'm saying remembrance is sati and anapana sati is remembrance of breathing. It's all rather simple.
Yeah, so you are saying, but there isfar better reason to go with Kearny's far more nuanced reading on this than the overly simple and misleading "remembrance."


I'm just saying that's what sati literally means. Kearney said it too although he said sati literally means memory. I'm not saying it's function isn't nuanced though or that it isn't related to being present because it is. But one has to remember and not forget to stay present in order to actually do so. And I am going with Kearney's reading I'm just saying that remembrance isn't a bad translation. ANY english translation of sati has to be qualified by understanding the context the word is used in.
What you are seriously failing to understand here is that meaning is determined by usage. Anyone who does translation work should understand this. Sati, as we can see from the various quotes from the suttas and from various scholars quoted above, is used in various ways throughout the suttas. "Remembrance" -- in light of the meditative functions described in the suttas -- really is not a good catch-all translation. It is misleading, unless you are willing to redefine "remembrance," but why do that, since that would only to the confusion?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Pali Term: Sati

Postby polarbuddha101 » Mon Apr 01, 2013 10:41 pm

tiltbillings wrote:What you are seriously failing to understand here is that meaning is determined by usage. Anyone who does translation work should understand this. Sati, as we can see from the various quotes from the suttas and from various scholars quoted above, is used in various ways throughout the suttas. "Remembrance" -- in light of the meditative functions described in the suttas -- really is not a good catch-all translation. It is misleading, unless you are willing to redefine "remembrance," but why do that, since that would only to the confusion?


No, I get what you're saying. I basically agree. The problem I find is that a lot of 'definitions' of sati espoused by people today leave out the most prevalent characteristic of sati, which has to with memory/remembrance. This is why when you ask a bunch of people at a meditation center what mindfulness means they give a whole lot of answers about bare awareness, non-reactive awareness, acceptive awareness, etc. etc (I'm thinking of a talk that Gil Fronsdal gave on sati at IMC where he asked people to say what they thought mindfulness/sati meant). The problem is that awareness is overemphasized when sati's primary function is remembering to stay aware, i.e. to have sampajanna, and remembering to put forth right effort and remembering the rest of the eightfold path and how to put it into practice. The teachers all probably know that sati has alot to do with remembrance but the students don't seem to. I wouldn't bother trying to get people to stop using the word mindfulness either because it works fine anyways but understanding how important remembrance is in sati is important. Another decent translation of sati is retention.
"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."
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Re: Pali Term: Sati

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Apr 01, 2013 10:54 pm

polarbuddha101 wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:What you are seriously failing to understand here is that meaning is determined by usage. Anyone who does translation work should understand this. Sati, as we can see from the various quotes from the suttas and from various scholars quoted above, is used in various ways throughout the suttas. "Remembrance" -- in light of the meditative functions described in the suttas -- really is not a good catch-all translation. It is misleading, unless you are willing to redefine "remembrance," but why do that, since that would only to the confusion?


No, I get what you're saying. I basically agree. The problem I find is that a lot of 'definitions' of sati espoused by people today leave out the most prevalent characteristic of sati, which has to with memory/remembrance. This is why when you ask a bunch of people at a meditation center what mindfulness means they give a whole lot of answers about bare awareness, non-reactive awareness, acceptive awareness, etc. etc (I'm thinking of a talk that Gil Fronsdal gave on sati at IMC where he asked people to say what they thought mindfulness/sati meant). The problem is that awareness is overemphasized when sati's primary function is remembering to stay aware, i.e. to have sampajanna, and remembering to put forth right effort and remembering the rest of the eightfold path and how to put it into practice. The teachers all probably know that sati has alot to do with remembrance but the students don't seem to. I wouldn't bother trying to get people to stop using the word mindfulness either because it works fine anyways but understanding how important remembrance is in sati is important. Another decent translation of sati is retention.
Retention? As in urinary retention? But, again, in reading your above paragraph, I can only shrug my shoulders. You are still missing the what is really central to sati.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Pali Term: Sati

Postby polarbuddha101 » Mon Apr 01, 2013 10:57 pm

tiltbillings wrote:Retention? As in urinary retention? But, again, in reading your above paragraph, I can only shrug my shoulders. You are still missing the what is really central to sati.


As in retaining something in mind which can include the present moment or the past.

I don't think I'm missing it. After reading Kearney, Thanissaro, Gunaratana and others' writings about sati I think I have a pretty good idea of what it is and how to use it. But anyway, :shrug:
"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."
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Re: Pali Term: Sati

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Apr 02, 2013 1:38 am

polarbuddha101 wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Retention? As in urinary retention? But, again, in reading your above paragraph, I can only shrug my shoulders. You are still missing the what is really central to sati.


As in retaining something in mind which can include the present moment or the past.

I don't think I'm missing it. After reading Kearney, Thanissaro, Gunaratana and others' writings about sati I think I have a pretty good idea of what it is and how to use it.
Add to that Ven Bodhi, Analayo, Rupert Gethin. A bit more of a nuanced approach rather than ball-peen hammer of "remembrance" would do far better justice to the dynamic of sati as it is actually used in the suttas.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Pali Term: Sati

Postby danieLion » Tue Apr 02, 2013 3:38 am

polarbuddha101 wrote:
danieLion wrote:
polarbuddha101 wrote:Would you agree that remembrance combined with clear awareness covers the whole meaning of sati as found in the texts?

danieLion wrote:No way. You'd have to ignore satipatthana, anapanasati, sammasati, etc....


polarbuddha101 wrote:I'm not ignoring those things, those are the things that one has to remember to be aware of, and to do so correctly.

This is circular reasoning.


No it isn't. I'm talking about the definition of a word not making a logical argument. I'm saying remembrance is sati and anapana sati is remembrance of breathing. It's all rather simple.

The definition? There's only one?

I know you're not making an arument. Going in circles isn't an arguing; it's imploding.
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Re: Pali Term: Sati

Postby danieLion » Tue Apr 02, 2013 3:48 am

polarbuddha101 wrote:
danieLion wrote:Exactly. What pb101's saying about sati could be said about most behaviors. Memory is a given. So if the Buddha wanted it to JUST mean memory or some synoym of memory I think he would have made it pliain that's what he was talking about. There's not much Nobility to merely not forgetting. It's not very profound to say not forgetting is important to The Path. Like...duhh!!! Thanks Captain Obvious. See what I mean?


I don't think you're fully appreciating how greatly deluded we are because we forget to stay fully aware of what's actually going on in the present moment.

danieLion wrote:1) The Buddha didn't teach momentariness (there's a Topic here but I ain't looking for it cuz of the search glich).
2) By your (Dmytro's, Thanissaro's, etc...) comments, sati as recollection is recollection about things past, and "awareness" is a "bad" translation.
3) We're not so greatly deluded that we can't see that sati means much more than mere recollection as the Buddha taught it.
4) Some of use are more deluded than others.


polarbuddha101 wrote:1) I'm not referring to that doctrine. Go ahead and take out the word moment, it makes no difference. Call it the experienced present if you want.
2) It is recollection of the past and remembering to stay aware of the experienced present.

How do you know when the past ends, the present begins, and the future starts?
polarbuddha101 wrote:3) Just because sati means memory/remembrance/recollection doesn't mean that it isn't related to the rest of the path. In practice it has a very important and complex function...
above you said it was all very simple. So, which is it?
polarbuddha101 wrote:...because one has to remember so many things and remember how to do so many things and remember to stay fully present as you're doing them.
4) Indeed, but that has nothing to do with the meaning of sati and now I get the feeling you're just being snide which is rather unnecessary.
Feelings are very deceptive.
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Re: Pali Term: Sati

Postby polarbuddha101 » Tue Apr 02, 2013 5:25 am

danieLion wrote:
I know you're not making an arument. Going in circles isn't an arguing; it's imploding.


You're reading a faulty logical operation into what I wrote that isn't there. My proposition that Sati means remembrance did not include any prior logical operation. Given this, the proposition that sati means remembrance, I then set forth a perfectly logical conclusion that anapana sati could be translated as remembrance of breathing.
"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."
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