Proper context for pejorative words sometimes?

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Ngawang Drolma.
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Proper context for pejorative words sometimes?

Post by Ngawang Drolma. »

Theravada means the ‘doctrine of the elders’. The term Hinayana has also been used for this form of Buddhism, but it is a misnomer. This term has been used by the Mahayana Buddhists, who reckoned that they were followers of the ‘greater vehicle’. The Mahayanists to differentiate themselves from the Theravadins called the latter Hinayana, the lesser vehicle. In the pre-Mahayana period there was truly a collateral sect called the Hinayana, but this sect is not the Theravada of today. This confusion was unfortunate, and therefore, it is better to avoid the term Hinayana altogether. Any attempt to label two different forms of Buddhism as ‘greater’ and ‘lesser’ is odious.
--Source

Hi all,

This is confusing to me. The term "Hinayana" was used before the break-up of the Sangha by Theravadan practitioners? What does it mean that the "Hinayana" of that time was different from the Theravada of today?

I've always thought that the term Hinayana was only pejorative. But I once saw Retro mention that there are appropriate uses for the word. Please play nice. I'm not trying to create divisions or open the door for ridiculing Mahayana. I put this in the "Discovering Theravada" section in hopes of just just getting information and clarification.

Thanks muchly,
Drolma

:anjali:
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tiltbillings
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Re: Proper context for pejorative words sometimes?

Post by tiltbillings »

Hinayana, the garbage vehicle, is a construction of the Mahayana. Haven't a clue as what this gentleman is talking about.
Ngawang Drolma wrote:
Theravada means the ‘doctrine of the elders’. The term Hinayana has also been used for this form of Buddhism, but it is a misnomer. This term has been used by the Mahayana Buddhists, who reckoned that they were followers of the ‘greater vehicle’. The Mahayanists to differentiate themselves from the Theravadins called the latter Hinayana, the lesser vehicle. In the pre-Mahayana period there was truly a collateral sect called the Hinayana, but this sect is not the Theravada of today. This confusion was unfortunate, and therefore, it is better to avoid the term Hinayana altogether. Any attempt to label two different forms of Buddhism as ‘greater’ and ‘lesser’ is odious.
--Source

Hi all,

This is confusing to me. The term "Hinayana" was used before the break-up of the Sangha by Theravadan practitioners? What does it mean that the "Hinayana" of that time was different from the Theravada of today?

I've always thought that the term Hinayana was only pejorative. But I once saw Retro mention that there are appropriate uses for the word. Please play nice. I'm not trying to create divisions or open the door for ridiculing Mahayana. I put this in the "Discovering Theravada" section in hopes of just just getting information and clarification.

Thanks muchly,
Drolma

:anjali:
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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retrofuturist
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Re: Proper context for pejorative words sometimes?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Laura,
This is confusing to me. The term "Hinayana" was used before the break-up of the Sangha by Theravadan practitioners?
No, prior to Mahayana, there were other early schools of Buddhism, and Mahayana classified all of these, collectively, as Hinayana. Of these, only the one that went on to be known retrospectively as Theravada, survives today.
What does it mean that the "Hinayana" of that time was different from the Theravada of today?
This just means that what came to be known as Theravada was only one of the 18 (?) earlier schools.
I've always thought that the term Hinayana was only pejorative.


Likewise.
But I once saw Retro mention that there are appropriate uses for the word.
In a solely Mahayana or Vajrayana environment where it can be a handy distinction... but I've also seen Mahayanists and Vajrayanists use alternative expressions which are not pejorative such as Shravakayana or Nikaya Buddhism. Obviously my preference would be for one of the latter two, but it's not really my place to say what other traditions (or religions) should do.
Please play nice. I'm not trying to create divisions or open the door for ridiculing Mahayana. I put this in the "Discovering Theravada" section in hopes of just just getting information and clarification.
If you have any follow up questions, feel free to ask.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Proper context for pejorative words sometimes?

Post by Ngawang Drolma. »

Thank you both. I had a feeling this was bad info.
Retro I've seen the word Nikaya before but didn't know what it meant. That one's a keeper :)

Kindly,
Drolma
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Re: Proper context for pejorative words sometimes?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Laura,
Ngawang Drolma wrote:Retro I've seen the word Nikaya before but didn't know what it meant. That one's a keeper :)
It points, in essence to those who base their practice on the teachings of the AN, DN, MN, SN & KN.

I suppose that ignores Abhidhamma, but y'know... an improvement on "hinayana".

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Proper context for pejorative words sometimes?

Post by cooran »

Hello Drolma, all,

You may find these articles on "The Term Hinayana from a Theravada Perspective" of interest:

http://www.lioncity.net/buddhism/index. ... opic=21602" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

metta
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Ngawang Drolma.
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Re: Proper context for pejorative words sometimes?

Post by Ngawang Drolma. »

Retro wrote:AN, DN, MN, SN & KN
Hi Retro :) Can you help me with decoding please?
It is good to know the exact meaning of Nikaya, thanks.

And Chris, great link! I'll investigate that discussion.

Kindly,
Drolma
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Re: Proper context for pejorative words sometimes?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Laura,

Here you go..

The Sutta Pitaka of the Pali Canon
http://www.vipassana.com/canon/sutta.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Ngawang Drolma.
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Re: Proper context for pejorative words sometimes?

Post by Ngawang Drolma. »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Laura,

Here you go..

The Sutta Pitaka of the Pali Canon
http://www.vipassana.com/canon/sutta.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Metta,
Retro. :)
Perfect, thanks :)

Best,
Laura
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Re: Proper context for pejorative words sometimes?

Post by Cittasanto »

hinayana was originally used for non-buddhist schools, which aimed at enlightenment such as the Jains, or some Buddhist schools whose existence were the result of Schism, and I think it would be fair to say the middle vheicle could be Arahant aimed schools and greater Vihicle may of been Boddhisattva ideal aimed, or vice versa depending on who was using the term, or hinayana may also of been used for those aiming at some point on the stream lower than Arahant but not the Boddhisatva path.

the 18 or so Schools weren't all due to schisms (the newer school or branch advocating something which is not dhammavinaya would be a schism) but rather a different philosophic emphasis or way to explain something which is a valid and suits some people.

only the Sthaviravada Vinaya liniages remain, the tibetan schools being part of the Sarvastivada recession and china, Taiwan, japan etc being the Dharmaguptaka recession which is the same brach as the theravadan = Vibhajjavāda

if we look at theravada, Mahayana & Vajrayana today, within each group there are sometimes many different nuances in teaching, but none are actually considdered not buddhist, or schismatic groups with the exception of one Tibetan group (NKT) and a Mahayana group or theravadin group but don't remember the name, I don't think there are any groups which could be called propperly any more schism groups and possibly some of the mix and match groups about could bt that is a seperate thing mostly outside of the vinaya recessions so couldn't acctually be classed as such propperly at least I don't think.

I know one monk dissagrees with me on some of these points (outside of this group) and some of this has been peiced to gether from different sources from seperate inquiries but I havn't seen heard etc anything which is verified from more than one persons point of view or source which has convinced me that I am wrong, so if anyone knows of anything which proves anything wrong please let me know! I do love being wrong about this sort of stuff
(bounties will be given depending on how wrong you proove me :guns: )
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Re: Proper context for pejorative words sometimes?

Post by Cittasanto »

Ngawang Drolma wrote:Thank you both. I had a feeling this was bad info.
Retro I've seen the word Nikaya before but didn't know what it meant. That one's a keeper :)

Kindly,
Drolma
these are reasonable articles
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikaya_Buddhism" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nik%C4%81ya" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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Re: Proper context for pejorative words sometimes?

Post by Ben »

Hi Drolma

I remember a couple of years ago Rev. Eijo (from e-sangha) wrote an essay on the historical context of the term Hinayana and the conclusion, which I remember, was that the term always was used as a pejorative.
Kind regards

Ben
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Re: Proper context for pejorative words sometimes?

Post by tiltbillings »

Manapa wrote:hinayana was originally used [by whom?] for non-buddhist schools, which aimed at enlightenment such as the Jains, or some Buddhist schools whose existence were the result of Schism,
Source?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: Proper context for pejorative words sometimes?

Post by cooran »

Hello all,

This may be of interest:
"Between the 1st Century B.C. to the 1st Century A.D., the two terms Mahayana and Hinayana appeared in the Saddharma Pundarika Sutra or the Sutra of the Lotus of the Good Law.
About the 2nd Century A.D. Mahayana became clearly defined. Nagarjuna developed the Mahayana philosophy of Sunyata and proved that everything is Void in a small text called Madhyamika-karika. About the 4th Century, there were Asanga and Vasubandhu who wrote enormous amount of works on Mahayana. After the 1st Century AD., the Mahayanists took a definite stand and only then the terms of Mahayana and Hinayana were introduced.

We must not confuse Hinayana with Theravada because the terms are not synonymous. Theravada Buddhism went to Sri Lanka during the 3rd Century B.C. when there was no Mahayana at all. Hinayana sects developed in India and had an existence independent from the form of Buddhism existing in Sri Lanka. Today there is no Hinayana sect in existence anywhere in the world."
http://zencomp.com/greatwisdom/ebud/ebdha125.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

metta
Chris
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Re: Proper context for pejorative words sometimes?

Post by Cittasanto »

Chris wrote:Hello all,

This may be of interest:
"Between the 1st Century B.C. to the 1st Century A.D., the two terms Mahayana and Hinayana appeared in the Saddharma Pundarika Sutra or the Sutra of the Lotus of the Good Law.
About the 2nd Century A.D. Mahayana became clearly defined. Nagarjuna developed the Mahayana philosophy of Sunyata and proved that everything is Void in a small text called Madhyamika-karika. About the 4th Century, there were Asanga and Vasubandhu who wrote enormous amount of works on Mahayana. After the 1st Century AD., the Mahayanists took a definite stand and only then the terms of Mahayana and Hinayana were introduced.

We must not confuse Hinayana with Theravada because the terms are not synonymous. Theravada Buddhism went to Sri Lanka during the 3rd Century B.C. when there was no Mahayana at all. Hinayana sects developed in India and had an existence independent from the form of Buddhism existing in Sri Lanka. Today there is no Hinayana sect in existence anywhere in the world."
http://zencomp.com/greatwisdom/ebud/ebdha125.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

metta
Chris
I have heard that small pockets of Mahayana were around in the early stages of forming within the same monestaries as other schools in india, but I doubt the validity of this remark as being more than an over and under estimate I think it is more likely some early forms of mahayana existed before the actual formation as groups in and of themselves not a cople of monks here and there, more like a couple of monestaries here & there seams likely to me.
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He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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