A Critique of the Hardcore Dharma Movement.

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Re: A Critique of the Hardcore Dharma Movement.

Postby Ben » Thu Apr 04, 2013 10:11 am

Maitri wrote:While I agree with you on this point, don't you think that this the case with most of Western Secular Buddhism?

No, not in my experience. Most reputable western teachers that I am familiar with make a big deal about the importance of sila.
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Re: A Critique of the Hardcore Dharma Movement.

Postby Spiny Norman » Thu Apr 04, 2013 10:20 am

Alex123 wrote:
porpoise wrote:
Alex123 wrote:So apparently even the Buddha could experience discomfort and unease.


And yet some suttas talk about the "here and now" cessation of suffering - so how does one reconcile this apparent contradiction? Is it about being "disjoined" from these feelings?


First of all, not all dukkha ceases. Even the Buddha felt "severe illness, and sharp and deadly pains." DN16. Dukkha of aging, illness, death, change - still remains.



So how do you explain the suttas which describe here and now cessation of suffering? Is it about different ways of interpreting dukkha?

Here's an example from MN9, this section is repeated throughout the sutta:
"....having entirely abandoned passion-obsession, having abolished aversion-obsession, having uprooted the view-&-conceit obsession 'I am'; having abandoned ignorance & given rise to clear knowing — he has put an end to suffering & stress right in the here-&-now, it is to this extent, too, that a disciple of the noble ones is a person of right view, one whose view is made straight, who is endowed with verified confidence in the Dhamma, and who has arrived at this true Dhamma."
Last edited by Spiny Norman on Thu Apr 04, 2013 10:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: A Critique of the Hardcore Dharma Movement.

Postby Spiny Norman » Thu Apr 04, 2013 10:21 am

taintless wrote:Well this is really interesting, as far as I see there are two issues:

1) The possibility that we and/or I have misunderstood what the state of an Arahat is.



And the possibility that we have misunderstood what dukkha is?
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Re: A Critique of the Hardcore Dharma Movement.

Postby taintless » Thu Apr 04, 2013 10:25 am

porpoise wrote:
taintless wrote:Well this is really interesting, as far as I see there are two issues:

1) The possibility that we and/or I have misunderstood what the state of an Arahat is.



And the possibility that we have misunderstood what dukkha is?


That is also probable. IMO.
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Re: A Critique of the Hardcore Dharma Movement.

Postby Maitri » Thu Apr 04, 2013 10:27 am

Ben wrote:
Maitri wrote:While I agree with you on this point, don't you think that this the case with most of Western Secular Buddhism?

No, not in my experience. Most reputable western teachers that I am familiar with make a big deal about the importance of sila.
kind regards,

Ben



No doubt that there are many Western teachers who are well versed in teaching morality. My comment was directed on the secularization of the Dhamma- reducing it all to meditation. I find that secular Buddhist movements seems to flow across all the traditions as well- not only in Theravada but in Mahayana as well. Several Zen traditions seem to suffer from this as well.
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Re: A Critique of the Hardcore Dharma Movement.

Postby Alex123 » Thu Apr 04, 2013 11:45 am

Ñāṇa wrote:
Alex123 wrote:It does sounds like Buddha was angry at Devadatta.

Do you not think it's possible to rebuke, reprove, reprimand, censure, criticize, or admonish someone without being angry?


It seems to me that there has to be certain degree of disliking of a wrong behavior in order to say something like he did to Devadatta.
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Re: A Critique of the Hardcore Dharma Movement.

Postby Alex123 » Thu Apr 04, 2013 11:49 am

porpoise wrote:So how do you explain the suttas which describe here and now cessation of suffering? Is it about different ways of interpreting dukkha?


Did it say all dukkha?


porpoise wrote:Here's an example from MN9, this section is repeated throughout the sutta:
"....having entirely abandoned passion-obsession, having abolished aversion-obsession, having uprooted the view-&-conceit obsession 'I am'; having abandoned ignorance & given rise to clear knowing — he has put an end to suffering & stress right in the here-&-now, it is to this extent, too, that a disciple of the noble ones is a person of right view, one whose view is made straight, who is endowed with verified confidence in the Dhamma, and who has arrived at this true Dhamma."


It doesn't have to be all dukkha. Furthermore it may refer to stopping now the possibility of future rebirths for Arahant or 8th and further births for stream enterer so all dukkha of those births will never occur.
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Re: A Critique of the Hardcore Dharma Movement.

Postby daverupa » Thu Apr 04, 2013 11:50 am

Perhaps the Devadatta story includes non-historical narrative elements, inappropriate for doctrinal derivations about arahants.
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: A Critique of the Hardcore Dharma Movement.

Postby Mr Man » Thu Apr 04, 2013 12:16 pm

in my opinion hardcore and dhamma do not mix.
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Re: A Critique of the Hardcore Dharma Movement.

Postby kirk5a » Thu Apr 04, 2013 12:59 pm

porpoise wrote:So how do you explain the suttas which describe here and now cessation of suffering? Is it about different ways of interpreting dukkha?

Here's an example from MN9, this section is repeated throughout the sutta:
"....having entirely abandoned passion-obsession, having abolished aversion-obsession, having uprooted the view-&-conceit obsession 'I am'; having abandoned ignorance & given rise to clear knowing — he has put an end to suffering & stress right in the here-&-now, it is to this extent, too, that a disciple of the noble ones is a person of right view, one whose view is made straight, who is endowed with verified confidence in the Dhamma, and who has arrived at this true Dhamma."

Since all that is felt is included within dukkha, clearly the dukkha referred to there which has been ended is mental dukkha, the second arrow. Parinibbana is the end of the first arrow.
"Bhikkhus, there are these two Nibbana-elements. What are the two? The Nibbana-element with residue left and the Nibbana-element with no residue left.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .irel.html
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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Re: A Critique of the Hardcore Dharma Movement.

Postby kirk5a » Thu Apr 04, 2013 1:08 pm

taintless wrote:Well this is really interesting, as far as I see there are two issues:

1) The possibility that we and/or I have misunderstood what the state of an Arahat is.

AND

2) Whether or not these criticisms can really be levied against the Hardcore Dharma movement adherents.

Number 2 is possible for me because I spent a large amount of time following the community at the Dharma Overground, and I noticed that kind of behavior that I mention. Number 1 however means something different, if it is truly the case that we and/or I are misinterpreting what it means to be an Arahat, then the rest of the criticisms may be pointless. Not invalid but pointless, merely because they really are making progress along the path.

For an Arahant, there is no arising of greed, hatred, delusion. Period. Done. There is no uncertainty about that.
"Seeing thus, the instructed disciple of the noble ones grows disenchanted with form, disenchanted with feeling, disenchanted with perception, disenchanted with fabrications, disenchanted with consciousness. Disenchanted, he becomes dispassionate. Through dispassion, he is fully released. With full release, there is the knowledge, 'Fully released.' He discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.'

"This, monks, is called a monk whose cross-bar is thrown off, [10] whose moat is filled in, whose pillar is pulled out, whose bolt is withdrawn, a noble one with banner lowered, burden placed down, unfettered.

"And how is a monk one whose cross-bar is thrown off? There is the case where a monk's ignorance is abandoned, its root destroyed, made like a palmyra stump, deprived of the conditions of development, not destined for future arising. This is how a monk is one whose cross-bar is thrown off.

"And how is a monk one whose moat is filled in? There is the case where a monk's wandering-on to birth, leading on to further-becoming, is abandoned, its root destroyed, made like a palmyra stump, deprived of the conditions of development, not destined for future arising. This is how a monk is one whose moat is filled in.

"And how is a monk one whose pillar is pulled out? There is the case where a monk's craving is abandoned, its root destroyed, made like a palmyra stump, deprived of the conditions of development, not destined for future arising. This is how a monk is one whose pillar is pulled out.

"And how is a monk one whose bolt is withdrawn? There is the case where a monk's five lower fetters are abandoned, their root destroyed, made like a palmyra stump, deprived of the conditions of development, not destined for future arising. This is how a monk is one whose bolt is withdrawn.

"And how is a monk a noble one with banner lowered, burden placed down, unfettered? There is the case where a monk's conceit 'I am' is abandoned, its root destroyed, made like a palmyra stump, deprived of the conditions of development, not destined for future arising. This is how a monk is a noble one with banner lowered, burden placed down, unfettered.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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Re: A Critique of the Hardcore Dharma Movement.

Postby Spiny Norman » Thu Apr 04, 2013 1:45 pm

kirk5a wrote:Since all that is felt is included within dukkha, clearly the dukkha referred to there which has been ended is mental dukkha, the second arrow. Parinibbana is the end of the first arrow.
"Bhikkhus, there are these two Nibbana-elements. What are the two? The Nibbana-element with residue left and the Nibbana-element with no residue left.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .irel.html


And yet the description of the Nibbana-element with no residue seems also to apply here and now, in this life:

"Now what, bhikkhus, is the Nibbana-element with no residue left? Here a bhikkhu is an arahant... completely released through final knowledge. For him, here in this very life, all that is experienced, not being delighted in, will be extinguished. That, bhikkhus, is called the Nibbana-element with no residue left."

I'm still not clear about whether the 1st arrow ( physical pain ) is dukkha for a Buddha.
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Re: A Critique of the Hardcore Dharma Movement.

Postby kirk5a » Thu Apr 04, 2013 2:44 pm

porpoise wrote:
And yet the description of the Nibbana-element with no residue seems also to apply here and now, in this life:

"Now what, bhikkhus, is the Nibbana-element with no residue left? Here a bhikkhu is an arahant... completely released through final knowledge. For him, here in this very life, all that is experienced, not being delighted in, will be extinguished. That, bhikkhus, is called the Nibbana-element with no residue left."

I'm still not clear about whether the 1st arrow ( physical pain ) is dukkha for a Buddha.

all that is experienced, not being delighted in, will be extinguished
Future tense.
Ven. Thanissaro translation of the verses that follow:
These two proclaimed
by the one with vision,
Unbinding properties the one independent,
the one who is Such:[3]
one property, here in this life
with fuel remaining
from the destruction
of the guide to becoming,
and that with no fuel remaining,
after this life,
in which all becoming
totally ceases.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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Re: A Critique of the Hardcore Dharma Movement.

Postby daverupa » Thu Apr 04, 2013 3:40 pm

porpoise wrote:I'm still not clear about whether the 1st arrow ( physical pain ) is dukkha for a Buddha.


SN 1.38 & SN 4.13 discuss this.

I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Rajagaha at the Maddakucchi Deer Reserve. Now at that time his foot had been pierced by a stone sliver. Excruciating were the bodily feelings that developed within him — painful, fierce, sharp, wracking, repellent, disagreeable — but he endured them mindful, alert, & unperturbed.


"Unperturbed" seems to be the key term here.
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: A Critique of the Hardcore Dharma Movement.

Postby Nyana » Thu Apr 04, 2013 7:08 pm

Alex123 wrote:
Ñāṇa wrote:
Alex123 wrote:It does sounds like Buddha was angry at Devadatta.

Do you not think it's possible to rebuke, reprove, reprimand, censure, criticize, or admonish someone without being angry?


It seems to me that there has to be certain degree of disliking of a wrong behavior in order to say something like he did to Devadatta.

Does disliking or denouncing wrong behavior require the presence of anger?
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Re: A Critique of the Hardcore Dharma Movement.

Postby Alex123 » Thu Apr 04, 2013 7:55 pm

Ñāṇa wrote:Does disliking or denouncing wrong behavior require the presence of anger?


I believe that dislike is anger, although to a much smaller degree.
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Re: A Critique of the Hardcore Dharma Movement.

Postby Nyana » Thu Apr 04, 2013 8:06 pm

Alex123 wrote:
Ñāṇa wrote:Does disliking or denouncing wrong behavior require the presence of anger?


I believe that dislike is anger, although to a much smaller degree.

I don't share your belief.
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Re: A Critique of the Hardcore Dharma Movement.

Postby Alex123 » Thu Apr 04, 2013 8:08 pm

Ñāṇa wrote:
Alex123 wrote:
Ñāṇa wrote:Does disliking or denouncing wrong behavior require the presence of anger?


I believe that dislike is anger, although to a much smaller degree.

I don't share your belief.


Dislike and anger both push away or reject something.

We can agree to disagree.
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Re: A Critique of the Hardcore Dharma Movement.

Postby lojong1 » Thu Apr 04, 2013 8:21 pm

Then there is knowledge of cause and effect.
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Re: A Critique of the Hardcore Dharma Movement.

Postby polarbuddha101 » Thu Apr 04, 2013 8:22 pm

Maybe it's not so much that the buddha personally dislikes bad actions but that he understands where they lead and so makes it very clear to others that certain actions are extremely detrimental to the person doing them out of compassion to that person and out of compassion to those who might follow suit in doing bad actions if the buddha doesn't put his foot down and let people know that they are terribly non-conducive to living the holy life and lead to one's long term harm and suffering. Sometimes people only understand a stern reaction and so the buddha gives one even though in his mind he is unperturbed, calm, neither liking nor disliking the way it is, at peace, cooled. Or perhaps you're just wrong Alex.
"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."
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