Buddhism and Women

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism

Re: Buddhism and Women

Postby jcsuperstar » Fri Jan 16, 2009 9:24 am

TheDhamma wrote:It probably was a result of the status of women at the time in northern India. I believe some of the commentaries state that the extra rules were to allow for the Dispensation to last longer. It may have been to please the male dominated society. Or it could have been a test of the resolve and determination of Maha Pajapati Gotami and the other future nuns (bhikkhunis).

An alternative, perhaps more controversial explanation is that the written account is wrong or added later: Bhikkhu Dr. Analayo, a scholar monk has been a strong advocate for bhikkhuni ordination and in his research feels that the Buddha was misrepresented in the texts about being reluctant to ordain women. Ven. Dr. Analayo pointed out an obvious timeline discrepancy that amazingly has gone undetected until now. It involves the deeply held belief that Ananda played an instrumental role in the founding of the bhikkhuni sangha. He was credited, and later chastised by the First Council, for advocating for the ordination of the Buddha's maternal aunt and stepmother, Mahapajapati. In a paper presented at the University of Marburg, Germany, Ven. Dr. Analayo writes, "There are many problems chronologically, however, in the traditional account of Mahaprajapati (from the Commentaries). She first requested ordination five years after Buddha's enlightenment; but Ananda, who requested Buddha on her behalf, first ordained only twenty years after Buddha's enlightenment. Considering that Mahaprajapati, as Buddha's maternal aunt, raised him after his mother's death, she would have been about eighty years old when Ananda was senior enough to make the request."

I added in "from the Commentaries" because I learned from another monk that that is where Ven. Analayo acquired the information.


have you read ajahn sujato? he talks about how Pajapati was not the first nun, and the extra rules were only given to her, that they were never meant for all nuns
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the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat
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Re: Buddhism and Women

Postby David N. Snyder » Fri Jan 16, 2009 8:57 pm

jcsuperstar wrote:have you read ajahn sujato? he talks about how Pajapati was not the first nun, and the extra rules were only given to her, that they were never meant for all nuns

:thumbsup:

That is a good possibility too, but the Classical Mahavihara considered it to be for all nuns.
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Re: Buddhism and Women

Postby Element » Fri Jan 16, 2009 10:20 pm

Elohim wrote:That is a good question. Nowhere in the Pali Canon does the Buddha ever say that women are less capable when it comes to achieving awakening....etc...

:goodpost:
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Re: Buddhism and Women

Postby Fede » Fri Jan 16, 2009 10:38 pm

Individual wrote:Verification is born of and leads to faith. Speculation is born of and leads to doubt.



Don't know where you got this flim-flam from....

Another way of looking at it would be to say -
Verification is born of curiosity and leads to confidence and conviction.
Speculation is born of curiosity and leads to discovery.
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Re: Buddhism and Women

Postby Individual » Fri Jan 16, 2009 11:27 pm

Manapa wrote:
Individual wrote:I am not claiming that Fede's conclusion is wrong, but I am agreeing with Peter that the argument is not a coherent one, even if it is born of compassion.

Verification is born of and leads to faith. Speculation is born of and leads to doubt. Whether Fede meant verification or speculation, either way, it does not directly address the issue of what the different rules mean, in context. :smile:


just because something is born from somewhere doesn't mean it is leading back to there and knowledge is something gained from both when used properly

You're right that something born from somewhere doesn't necessarily mean it will lead back there. But ignorance, if left unattended to, will still remain. And virtues, such as faith, if developed, also remain.

Fede wrote:
Individual wrote:Verification is born of and leads to faith. Speculation is born of and leads to doubt.



Don't know where you got this flim-flam from....

Another way of looking at it would be to say -
Verification is born of curiosity and leads to confidence and conviction.
Speculation is born of curiosity and leads to discovery.

You could say that, yes. But you could also say, "Curiousity killed the cat."

Dhamma vicaya must be carefully distinguished from vicikiccha. And both of these must also be distinguished from panna and bodhi.
The best things in life aren't things.

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Re: Buddhism and Women

Postby jcsuperstar » Sat Jan 17, 2009 3:35 am

Element wrote:
Elohim wrote:That is a good question. Nowhere in the Pali Canon does the Buddha ever say that women are less capable when it comes to achieving awakening....etc...

:goodpost:

i know and this is made explicitly clear, yet i hear time and time again how the theravada limits women, because they cant be buddhas just poor old arahants (well they say arhat)
i always liken it to a woman cant be a king, theres no way a woman can be a king, sorry. theres nothing sexist about that, a woman can be a queen, can rule a country with just as much authority and power, be in everyway equal to a king, but can never be a king. yet some people are just hung up on the word king....

:buddha1: :buddha2:
สัพเพ สัตตา สุขีตา โหนตุ

the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat
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Re: Buddhism and Women

Postby Cittasanto » Sat Jan 17, 2009 9:21 am

Individual wrote:
Manapa wrote:just because something is born from somewhere doesn't mean it is leading back to there and knowledge is something gained from both when used properly

You're right that something born from somewhere doesn't necessarily mean it will lead back there. But ignorance, if left unattended to, will still remain. And virtues, such as faith, if developed, also remain.


I rarely see faith mentioned in the Suttas, even in different translations of the same ones.
it isnt something that I worry about.But Broken legs by faith alone don't heal straight.
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Re: Buddhism and Women

Postby mikenz66 » Sat Jan 17, 2009 9:54 am

Greetings Manapa,

Some translators use the translation "confidence" instead. It's one of the spiritual faculties/powers...

See http://what-buddha-said.net/library/Bud ... addh%C4%81

Saddhā: faith, confidence. A Buddhist is said to have faith if;he believes in the Perfect One's the Buddha's Enlightenment; M 53; A.V, 2, or in the Three Jewels see: ti-ratana by taking his refuge in them see: ti-sarana His faith, however, should be;reasoned and rooted in understanding; ākāravatā saddhā dassanamūlika a href=dic2-abbrev.htm#M. M. 47, and he is asked to investigate and test the object of his faith M. 47, 95. A Buddhist's faith is not in conflict with the spirit of inquiry, and;doubt about dubitable things; A. II, 65; S. XLII, 13 is admitted and inquiry into them is encouraged. The 'ability of faith' saddhindriya should be balanced with that of understanding paññindriya see: indriya-samatta It is said:;A Bhikkhu who has understanding, establishes his faith in accordance with that understanding; S. XLVIII, 45. Through understanding and understanding, faith becomes an inner certainty and firm conviction based on one's own experience.

Faith is called the seed Sn. v. 77 of all advantageous states because, according to commentarial explanations, it inspires the mind with confidence okappana pasāda and determination adhimokkha for 'launching out' pakhandhana see: M. 122 to cross the flood of samsāra

Unshakable faith is attained on reaching the first stage of Nobility, 'stream-entry' sotāpatti, see: ariya-puggala when the fetter of sceptical doubt vicikicchā see: samyojana is eliminated. Unshakable confidence avecca-pasāda in the Three Jewels is one of the characteristic qualities of the Stream-winner sotāpannassa angāni.

Faith is a mental concomitant, present in all kammically advantageous, and its corresponding neutral, consciousness see: Tab. II.. It is one of the 4 streams of merit puññadhārā,, one of the 5 spiritual abilities indriya, spiritual powers bala,, elements of exertion padhāniyanga and one of the 7 treasures dhana,.

See Faith in the Buddha's Teaching, by Soma Thera WHEEL 262.,Does Saddhā mean Faith?'' by Ñānamoli Thera in WHEEL 52/53.


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