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Anatta = not Atman or No-Self - Dhamma Wheel

Anatta = not Atman or No-Self

Explore the ancient language of the Tipitaka and Theravāda commentaries

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Alex123
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Anatta = not Atman or No-Self

Postby Alex123 » Fri Apr 05, 2013 1:01 pm

Last edited by Alex123 on Fri Apr 05, 2013 3:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

frank k
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Re: Anatta = not Atman or No-Self

Postby frank k » Fri Apr 05, 2013 2:47 pm

Reading the new AN by B.Bodhi, recently in the chapter of 4's, I came across a passage where B.Bodhi used the word "soul", presumably as a translation for atta. I don't have time to look up the pali to confirm right now though...
http://www.audtip.org Audio Sutta Recordings

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Spiny Norman
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Re: Anatta = not Atman or No-Self

Postby Spiny Norman » Fri Apr 05, 2013 3:06 pm

"My religion is very simple - my religion is ice-cream."
Dairy Lama

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Alex123
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Re: Anatta = not Atman or No-Self

Postby Alex123 » Fri Apr 05, 2013 3:43 pm

"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

pegembara
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Re: Anatta = not Atman or No-Self

Postby pegembara » Fri Apr 05, 2013 4:40 pm

And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.

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manas
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Re: Anatta = not Atman or No-Self

Postby manas » Fri Apr 05, 2013 9:19 pm

Then the Blessed One, picking up a tiny bit of dust with the tip of his fingernail, said to the monk, "There isn't even this much form...feeling...
perception...fabrications...consciousness that is constant, lasting, eternal, not subject to change, that will stay just as it is as long as eternity."

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Re: Anatta = not Atman or No-Self

Postby Samma » Fri Apr 05, 2013 11:04 pm


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Alex123
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Re: Anatta = not Atman or No-Self

Postby Alex123 » Sat Apr 06, 2013 12:48 am

"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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daverupa
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Re: Anatta = not Atman or No-Self

Postby daverupa » Sat Apr 06, 2013 1:07 am

The Brahmajala Sutta describes how various wrong views arise with contact as condition; much of the prevailing discussion among bahmins and samanas revolved around their ritual and/or meditative experiences, filtered through various textual lineages (I hope these broad strokes are not too abrasive to those more informed). Ideation about atta seems to be most relevant in this respect, and it is perhaps why we are told sabbe dhamma anatta.

Descriptions of experience in the Nikayas describe the pervasive stench of asmimana, however, so it may be relevant to address that term with respect to practical investigations. It does not seem to be mere metaphysics, at any rate.

On that note, I wonder if sakkaya-ditthi is more easily indicated to the average inquirer... a working definition, if you will.

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Way~Farer
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Re: Anatta = not Atman or No-Self

Postby Way~Farer » Sat Apr 06, 2013 1:46 am

In order to really get a grasp of the way the idea of 'anatta' is developed, some reading is necessary. I would recommend the following:

Richard Gombrich

Sue Hamilton-Blythe

T R V Murti


There is a lot in these texts, but that is about what it takes to get a grounding in this topic.

Others might have other suggestions.

SamKR
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Re: Anatta = not Atman or No-Self

Postby SamKR » Sat Apr 06, 2013 2:39 am

Last edited by SamKR on Sat Apr 06, 2013 2:53 am, edited 6 times in total.

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BlackBird
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Re: Anatta = not Atman or No-Self

Postby BlackBird » Sat Apr 06, 2013 2:47 am

Anatta is something to be realized. Conceptual pondering that culminates in one forming a view of what they think anatta is might actually hinder ones progress, since one comes to assume they understand what they in truth do not.
Last edited by BlackBird on Sat Apr 06, 2013 3:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." -

SamKR
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Re: Anatta = not Atman or No-Self

Postby SamKR » Sat Apr 06, 2013 3:03 am


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BlackBird
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Re: Anatta = not Atman or No-Self

Postby BlackBird » Sat Apr 06, 2013 3:18 am

"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." -

SamKR
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Re: Anatta = not Atman or No-Self

Postby SamKR » Sat Apr 06, 2013 3:51 am

No problem, Blackbird. By phenomena I mean all that constitute five khandhas -- that appear and disappear.
To me the dichotomy of subjective and objective is an illusion: no position can be taken about subjectivity or objectivity of phenomena.

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Spiny Norman
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Re: Anatta = not Atman or No-Self

Postby Spiny Norman » Sat Apr 06, 2013 8:59 am

"My religion is very simple - my religion is ice-cream."
Dairy Lama

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Spiny Norman
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Re: Anatta = not Atman or No-Self

Postby Spiny Norman » Sat Apr 06, 2013 9:08 am

"My religion is very simple - my religion is ice-cream."
Dairy Lama

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reflection
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Re: Anatta = not Atman or No-Self

Postby reflection » Sat Apr 06, 2013 10:56 am

Anatta means the aggregates are just processes, without owner or controller. And because there is nothing aside from the aggregates, it's ok to say there is no self anywhere. There is this sutta quote that says if there is a self anywhere, the Buddhist path would not exist. So, that says if there was an entity with control or ownership, the path would not exist. Because if there was control over the aggregates, we would just turn them as we like. Which obviously, we can't or we wouldn't ever have suffered.

So that's not meant as a strategy. Yes, anatta can be used like a strategy, but it's not just a strategy. Just like suffering and impermanence are not mere strategies, but realities of existence, so is anatta the Buddha's answer to the big questions in life. Dukkha, anicca and anatta are the same thing. As far as I've seen the discourses, they are treated identically. Not one as a technique and others as a reality.

I know this is in the pali forum. If you expect an answer based on pali literature, I'm sure many things can be found - but don't ask me. ;)

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Alex123
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Re: Anatta = not Atman or No-Self

Postby Alex123 » Sat Apr 06, 2013 5:04 pm

"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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Alex123
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Re: Anatta = not Atman or No-Self

Postby Alex123 » Sat Apr 06, 2013 5:07 pm

"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."


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