The moment one attains Nibbana

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The moment one attains Nibbana

Postby Stephen K » Tue Jul 14, 2009 10:07 am

What does the meditator realize the moment he attains Nibbana? I think he realizes anatta, isn't that so?
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Re: The moment one attains Nibbana

Postby Cittasanto » Tue Jul 14, 2009 10:49 am

I immagine he realises 3 little words

is that so!
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
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Re: The moment one attains Nibbana

Postby kc2dpt » Tue Jul 14, 2009 3:13 pm

from here:
What does the Dhamma eye see when it arises?

"Then to Sariputta the wanderer, as he heard this exposition of Dhamma, there arose the dustless, stainless Dhamma eye: Whatever is subject to origination is all subject to cessation." — Mv 1.23.5

This standard formula — it is repeated throughout the Canon — may not seem that remarkable an insight. However, the texts make clear that this insight is not a matter of belief or contemplation, but of direct seeing.
- Peter

Be heedful and you will accomplish your goal.
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Re: The moment one attains Nibbana

Postby Individual » Tue Jul 14, 2009 4:36 pm

Stefan wrote:What does the meditator realize the moment he attains Nibbana? I think he realizes anatta, isn't that so?

A simple answer (possibly oversimplistic) would be: "Nothing".

A more complicated answer is that he realizes the unconditioned, voidness, anatta and anicca, which is very beautiful and supreme happiness, a source of infinite strength, where physical, causal forces (kamma) have no footing, no relevance, and no power or control.
The best things in life aren't things.

The Diamond Sutra
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Re: The moment one attains Nibbana

Postby Rhino » Tue Jul 14, 2009 5:05 pm

Stefan wrote:What does the meditator realize the moment he attains Nibbana? I think he realizes anatta, isn't that so?

Knowledge (vijjā). I think anatta is seen earlier with stream-winning (while conceit is still present).
With best wishes

Only in a vertical view, straight down into the abyss of his own personal existence, is a man capable of apprehending the perilous insecurity of his situation; and only a man who does apprehend this is prepared to listen to the Buddha's Teaching.
Nanavira Thera - Notes on Dhamma
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Re: The moment one attains Nibbana

Postby clw_uk » Tue Jul 14, 2009 5:24 pm

It is liberated
“Happy is the man who has broken the chains which hurt the mind, and has given up worrying once and for all.” Ovid
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Re: The moment one attains Nibbana

Postby puthujjana » Tue Jul 14, 2009 6:31 pm

Ayya Khema talked about the moment of fruition in her books: http://books.google.de/books?id=1egKTZ7 ... t&resnum=1

I love her quote from the Visuddhimagga on page 158/159. It's a really beautiful simile.

with metta
:anjali:
"Once you understand anatta, then the burden of life is gone. You’ll be at peace with the world. When we see beyond self, we no longer cling to happiness and we can truly be happy."
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Re: The moment one attains Nibbana

Postby kc2dpt » Tue Jul 14, 2009 7:03 pm

Rhino wrote:
Stefan wrote:What does the meditator realize the moment he attains Nibbana? I think he realizes anatta, isn't that so?

Knowledge (vijjā). I think anatta is seen earlier with stream-winning (while conceit is still present).

Oh, I thought we were talking about stream-winning. If we're talking about arahantship then the relevant quote would be:

"My heart, thus knowing, thus seeing, was released from the fermentation of sensuality, released from the fermentation of becoming, released from the fermentation of ignorance. With release, there was the knowledge, 'Released.' I discerned that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.'" - MN 36
- Peter

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Re: The moment one attains Nibbana

Postby Ngawang Drolma. » Wed Jul 15, 2009 4:20 am

Stefan wrote:What does the meditator realize the moment he attains Nibbana? I think he realizes anatta, isn't that so?


I just read this. I have no idea when the Buddha said it though, so I don't have a context.

I have gone through many rounds of birth and death, looking in vain for the builder of this body. Heavy indeed is birth and death again and again! But now I have seen you, house-builder, you shall not build this house again. Its beams are broken, its dome is shattered: self-will is extinguished; nirvana is attained.
-The Dhammapada, verse 153-4.


:anjali:
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Re: The moment one attains Nibbana

Postby cooran » Wed Jul 15, 2009 5:18 am

Hello Ngawang Drolma, all,

Dhammapada Verses 153 and 1541
Udana Vatthu

Anekajatisamsaram
sandhavissam anibbisam
gahakaram gavesanto2
dukkha jati punappunam3.

Gahakaraka ditthosi4
puna geham na kahasi5
sabba te phasuka bhagga6
gahakotam visankhatam7
visankharagatam cittam8
tanhanam khayamajjhaga9.

Verse 153: I, who have been seeking the builder of this house (body), failing to attain Enlightenment (Bodhi nana or Sabbannuta nana) which would enable me to find him, have wandered through innumerable births in samsara. To be born again and again is, indeed, dukkha!

Verse 154: Oh house-builder! You are seen, you shall build no house (for me) again. All your rafters are broken, your roof-tree is destroyed. My mind has reached the unconditioned (i.e., Nibbana); the end of craving (Arahatta Phala) has been attained.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1. Footnotes to Verses 153 and 154: These two verses are expressions of intense and sublime joy the Buddha felt at the very moment of his attainment of Enlightenment; as such, they are replete with a wealth of sublime meaning and deep feeling.

2. gahakaram gavesanto: lit., "I who have tried to find the builder of the house" The house is the body, the builder is Craving (Tanha). The meaning of Verse (153) as given in the Commentary is as follows:

I who have been seeking the builder of this house, knowing that he could be seen only with a certain wisdom, have been trying to attain such wisdom (Bodhi nana) ever since Dipankara Buddha prophesied that I would, one day, become a Buddha like him. But failing to attain Bodhi nana, I have wandered through this course of hundreds of thousands of existences in the endless round of rebirths.

3. dukkha jati punappunam: To be born again and again is dukkha. This is the reason for trying to find the builder of this house, the Carpenter Craving.

Birth which comes together with aging, disease and death is dukkha; that is why I have been incessantly looking for the Householder Craving.

4. ditthosi: You are seen: I have seen you now that I have attained Enlightenment or Bodhi nana, the all comprehending wisdom, with my own Insight.

5. puna geham na kahasi: No house shall be built again: You shall not build another house (for me) in this round of rebirths.

6. sabba te phasuka bhagga: All your rafters are broken: I have destroyed all the remaining defilements.

7. gahakutam visankhatam The roof-tree has been destroyed: I have dispelled Ignorance.

8. visankharagatam cittam: lit., my mind has reached the Unconditioned, having Nibbana as its object, my mind has realized Nibbana.

9. tanhanam khayamajjhaga: The end of craving has been attained. I have attained Arahatta Fruition.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Story Concerning the "Words of Exultation of the Buddha"

These two verses are expressions of intense and sublime joy felt by the Buddha at the moment of attainment of Supreme Enlightenment (Bodhi nana or Sabbannuta nana). These verses were repeated at the Jetavana monastery at the request of the Venerable Ananda.

Prince Siddhattha, of the family of Gotama, son of King Suddhodana and Queen Maya of the kingdom of the Sakyans, renounced the world at the age of twenty-nine and became an ascetic in search of the Dhamma (Truth). For six years, he wandered about the valley of the Ganges, approaching famous religious leaders, studying their doctrines and methods. He lived austerely and submitted himself strictly to rigorous ascetic discipline; but he found all these traditional practices to be unsound. He was determined to find the Truth in his own way, and by avoiding the two extremes of excessive sensual indulgence and self-mortification*, he found the Middle Path which would lead to Perfect Peace, Nibbana. This Middle Path (Majjhimapatipada) is the Noble Path of Eight Constituents, viz., Right view, Right thought, Right speech, Right action, Right livelihood, Right effort, Right mindfulness and Right concentration.

Thus, one evening, seated under a Bo tree on the bank of the Neranjara river, Prince Siddhattha Gotama attained Supreme Enlightenment (Bodhi nana or Sabbannuta nana) at the age of thirty-five. During the first watch of the night, the prince attained the power of recollection of past existences (Pubbenivasanussati-nana) and during the second watch he attained the divine power of sight (Dibbacakkhu nana). Then, during the third watch of the night he contemplated the Doctrine of Dependent Origination (Paticcasamuppada) in the order of arising (anuloma) as well as in the order of cessation (patiloma). At the crack of dawn, Prince Siddhattha Gotama by his own intellect and insight fully and completely comprehended the Four Noble Truths. The Four Noble Truths are: The Noble Truth of Dukkha (Dukkha Ariya Sacca), the Noble Truth of the Cause of Dukkha (Dukkha Samudaya Ariya Sacca), the Noble Truth of the Cessation of Dukkha (Dukkha Nirodha Ariya Sacca), and The Noble Truth of the Path Leading to the Cessation of Dukkha (Dukkha Nirodha Gamini Patipada Ariya Sacca). There also appeared in him, in all their purity. The knowledge of the nature of each Noble Truth (Sacca nana), knowledge of the performance required for each Noble Truth (Kicca nana), and the knowledge of the completion of the performance required for each Noble Truth (Kata nana); and thus, he attained the Sabbannuta nana (also called Bodhi nana) of a Buddha. From that time, he was known as Gotama the Buddha.

In this connection, it should be noted that only when the Four Noble Truths, under their three aspects (therefore, the twelve modes), had become perfectly clear to him that the Buddha acknowledged in the world of Men, the world of Devas and that of Brahmas that he had attained the Supreme Enlightenment and therefore had become a Buddha.

At the moment of the attainment of Buddhahood,
the Buddha uttered the following two verses:

Verse 153: I, who have been seeking the builder of this house (body), failing to attain Enlightenment (Bodhi nana or Sabbannuta nana) which would enable me to find him, have wandered through innumerable births in samsara. To be born again and again is, indeed, dukkha!


Verse 154: Oh house-builder! You are seen, you shall build no house (for me) again. All your rafters are broken, your roof-tree is destroyed. My mind has reached the unconditioned (i.e., Nibbana); the end of craving (Arahatta Phala) has been attained.


* Kamasukhallikanuyoga and Attakiamathanuyoga.

http://www.tipitaka.net/tipitaka/dhp/ve ... ?verse=153
metta,
Chris
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Re: The moment one attains Nibbana

Postby mikenz66 » Wed Jul 15, 2009 5:38 am

http://what-buddha-said.net/library/Bud ... bb%C4%81na
Nibbāna: Sanskrit nirvāna lit. 'ceasing' nir + Ö va to cease blowing, to become extinguished; according to the commentaries, 'freedom from desire' nir+ vana Nibbāna constitutes the highest and ultimate goal of all Buddhist aspirations, i.e. absolute ceasing of that life-affirming will manifested as greed, hate and confusion, and convulsively clinging to existence; and therewith also the ultimate and absolute deliverance from all future rebirth, old age, disease and death, from all suffering and misery. Cf. parinibbāna

Extinction of greed, ceasing of hate, ceasing of confusion: this is called Nibbāna; S. XXXVIII. 1.

The 2 aspects of Nibbāna are:

1: The full ceasing of defilements kilesa-parinibbāna also called sa-upādi-sesa-nibbāna see: It. 41, i.e. 'Nibbāna with the groups of existence still remaining' see: upādi. This takes place at the attainment of Arahatship, or perfect Nobility see: ariya-puggala.

2: The full ceasing of the groups of existence khandha-parinibbāna also called an-upādi-sesa-nibbāna see: It. 41, A. IV, 118, i.e. 'Nibbāna without the groups remaining', in other words, the coming to rest, or rather the 'no-more-continuing' of this physico-mental process of existence. This takes place at the death of the Arahat. - App.: Nibbāna.
...

Note that from an Abhidhamma perspective, the attainment of any level of Noble Disciple involves a citta arising with nibbana as the object.
http://what-buddha-said.net/library/Bud ... ya-puggala
Ariya-puggala: or simply Ariya: Noble Ones, noble persons:
The 8, Ariya = Noble Ones are those who have realized one of the 8 stages of Nobility, i.e. the 4 supra-mundane paths magga and the 4 supra-mundane fruitions phala of these paths. There are thus these 4 pairs:
...
Summed up, there are 4 noble individuals ariya-puggala:
1: The Stream-winner Sotāpanna,
2: The Once-Returner Sakadāgāmi,
3: The Non-Returner Anāgāmī,
4: The Worthy One Arahat.

According to the Abhidhamma, the supra-mundane path, or simply path magga, is a designation of the moment of entering into one of these 4 stages of Nobility with Nibbāna being the object, produced by intuitional insight vipassanā into the impermanence, misery and impersonality of existence, flashing forth and forever transforming one's life and nature. By fruition phala is meant those moments of consciousness which follow immediately thereafter as the result of the path, and which in certain circumstances may repeat for innumerable times during the life-time.
...

Metta
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Re: The moment one attains Nibbana

Postby Ngawang Drolma. » Wed Jul 15, 2009 5:55 am

Hi Chris,

Thanks a lot, that was very useful :)

Kindly,
Drolma
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Re: The moment one attains Nibbana

Postby rowyourboat » Wed Jul 15, 2009 8:37 am

Hi I think there is a common (mis)assumption that anatta is realized at the point of enlightenemnt. It is not even the case for stream entry. Even in stream entry anatta is realized at an earlier vipassana nana level than at the actual point of attainment.
With Metta

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Re: The moment one attains Nibbana

Postby Cittasanto » Wed Jul 15, 2009 8:40 am

rowyourboat wrote:Hi I think there is a common (mis)assumption that anatta is realized at the point of enlightenemnt. It is not even the case for stream entry. Even in stream entry anatta is realized at an earlier vipassana nana level than at the actual point of attainment.


when did Sariputta realise Anatta?
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
With Metta
Upāsaka Cittasanto
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: The moment one attains Nibbana

Postby mikenz66 » Wed Jul 15, 2009 10:41 am

Manapa wrote:when did Sariputta realise Anatta?

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... saristream

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Re: The moment one attains Nibbana

Postby acinteyyo » Fri Jul 24, 2009 2:45 pm

Stefan wrote:What does the meditator realize the moment he attains Nibbana? I think he realizes anatta, isn't that so?


I don't think we can say correctly that "someone attains nibbanā". if there is nibbanā, there isn't greed, hate and ignorance respectively there is not-greed, not-hate and not-ignorance. when we say "someone attains nibbanā" I am sure that this will be misunderstood by any puthujjana.

best wishes
Pubbe cāhaṃ bhikkhave, etarahi ca dukkhañceva paññāpemi, dukkhassa ca nirodhaṃ. (M.22)
Both formerly, monks, and now, it is just suffering that I make known and the ending of suffering.
Pathabyā ekarajjena, saggassa gamanena vā sabbalokādhipaccena, sotāpattiphalaṃ varaṃ. (Dhp 178)
Sole dominion over the earth, going to heaven or lordship over all worlds: the fruit of stream-entry excels them.

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Re: The moment one attains Nibbana

Postby mikenz66 » Fri Jul 24, 2009 11:38 pm

acinteyyo wrote:I don't think we can say correctly that "someone attains nibbanā".

Well, yes, but extreme tiredness and irritation may arise in the mind streams that have caused postings to arise on this Forum if there is an insistence to rewrite all questions in Abhidhammic terms, such as:
"What is it that is cognised by the citta that takes nibbana as an object?"
[Which may not be the technically correct way to express it, but it is the best that the stream of nama-rupa commonly known as "Mike" can manage at this point in time...].

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Re: The moment one attains Nibbana

Postby mikenz66 » Sat Jul 25, 2009 12:07 am

For a summary of the Abhidhamma exposition of what happens see Page of
A comprehensive manual of abhidhamma , edited by Bhikkhu Bodhi IX.34, page 354
Purification by Knowledge and Vision
http://books.google.com.au/books?id=hxo ... lQTussnmCQ

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Re: The moment one attains Nibbana

Postby acinteyyo » Sat Jul 25, 2009 8:50 am

mikenz66 wrote:
acinteyyo wrote:I don't think we can say correctly that "someone attains nibbanā".

Well, yes, but extreme tiredness and irritation may arise in the mind streams that have caused postings to arise on this Forum if there is an insistence to rewrite all questions in Abhidhammic terms, such as:
"What is it that is cognised by the citta that takes nibbana as an object?"
[Which may not be the technically correct way to express it, but it is the best that the stream of nama-rupa commonly known as "Mike" can manage at this point in time...].
Metta
Mike

yes, this may happen. but when invalid questions (invalid because of wrong diction) are asked, answers to those invalid questions are inappropriate, except the answer points out that the question is invalid. any other answer will lead to misunderstanding. in addition to that, there is nothing to say about nibbanā which could be understood by words (written or spoken) which leads to the cessation of dukkha. but there are things the buddha said about nibbanā, which lead to intellectual understanding. so my opinion is to leave questions about nibbanā by side would be adequately because intellectual understanding doesn't lead to the cessation of dukkha. naturally no one has to leave those questions by side when he or she doesn't want to, it's a matter of what the aim is.
best wishes
Pubbe cāhaṃ bhikkhave, etarahi ca dukkhañceva paññāpemi, dukkhassa ca nirodhaṃ. (M.22)
Both formerly, monks, and now, it is just suffering that I make known and the ending of suffering.
Pathabyā ekarajjena, saggassa gamanena vā sabbalokādhipaccena, sotāpattiphalaṃ varaṃ. (Dhp 178)
Sole dominion over the earth, going to heaven or lordship over all worlds: the fruit of stream-entry excels them.

:anjali:
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Re: The moment one attains Nibbana

Postby Jechbi » Sat Jul 25, 2009 3:45 pm

I like Chris's answer:

ditthosi
Rain soddens what is kept wrapped up,
But never soddens what is open;
Uncover, then, what is concealed,
Lest it be soddened by the rain.
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