A disgusting religious tradition, that has resulted in death

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BlackBird
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A disgusting religious tradition, that has resulted in death

Postby BlackBird » Sat Apr 06, 2013 11:45 pm

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... -City.html

This kind of thing should be banned in the west. Poor babies, metta to them.
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." -

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SDC
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Re: A disgusting religious tradition, that has resulted in d

Postby SDC » Sun Apr 07, 2013 12:37 am

Wow, that practice is ridiculous.

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manas
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Re: A disgusting religious tradition, that has resulted in d

Postby manas » Sun Apr 07, 2013 12:42 am

Then the Blessed One, picking up a tiny bit of dust with the tip of his fingernail, said to the monk, "There isn't even this much form...feeling...
perception...fabrications...consciousness that is constant, lasting, eternal, not subject to change, that will stay just as it is as long as eternity."

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BlackBird
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Re: A disgusting religious tradition, that has resulted in d

Postby BlackBird » Sun Apr 07, 2013 12:50 am

Well I dunno, even though it's disgusting and inappropriate, I don't think there's a sexual element to it. To me, the problem is they are knowingly endangering the lives of their children, risking giving them brain damage, or at the very least herpes.
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." -

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manas
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Re: A disgusting religious tradition, that has resulted in d

Postby manas » Sun Apr 07, 2013 12:56 am

Last edited by manas on Sun Apr 07, 2013 1:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
Then the Blessed One, picking up a tiny bit of dust with the tip of his fingernail, said to the monk, "There isn't even this much form...feeling...
perception...fabrications...consciousness that is constant, lasting, eternal, not subject to change, that will stay just as it is as long as eternity."

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BlackBird
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Re: A disgusting religious tradition, that has resulted in d

Postby BlackBird » Sun Apr 07, 2013 1:01 am

"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." -

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Modus.Ponens
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Re: A disgusting religious tradition, that has resulted in d

Postby Modus.Ponens » Sun Apr 07, 2013 1:12 am

He turns his mind away from those phenomena, and having done so, inclines his mind to the property of deathlessness: 'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.'
(Jhana Sutta - Thanissaro Bhikkhu translation)

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BlackBird
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Re: A disgusting religious tradition, that has resulted in d

Postby BlackBird » Sun Apr 07, 2013 1:21 am

"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." -

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Ben
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Re: A disgusting religious tradition, that has resulted in d

Postby Ben » Sun Apr 07, 2013 5:43 am

Yeah, I read about it this morning and my first reaction was revulsion.
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

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Alex123
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Re: A disgusting religious tradition, that has resulted in d

Postby Alex123 » Sun Apr 07, 2013 11:04 pm

These disgusting things along with female genital mutilation and others is why I believe that religion can actually be harmful.

It is one thing to believe in fairy tales.
But it is totally different to force one's views and practices on others, in this case on defenseless children. This is horrible!
"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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David N. Snyder
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Re: A disgusting religious tradition, that has resulted in d

Postby David N. Snyder » Sun Apr 07, 2013 11:25 pm

Image




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Dan74
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Re: A disgusting religious tradition, that has resulted in d

Postby Dan74 » Mon Apr 08, 2013 12:13 am

Sorry to be a devil's advocate here, but I think the whole thing has been blown out of proportion.

The injuries from what I could gather are extremely rare. The long-term consequences of being circumcised are not trauma and lack of sexual function, if anything they are positive or neutral. The sucking of the blood out is how it was done in ancient times to prevent infection (hasn't your grandmother done a similar thing after you cut your finger as a child?), and we should be careful not to project any sexualized notions onto it. This is our baggage, not necessarily theirs.

Of course it is tragic for the little one and the family. But do we ask our babies before we vaccinate them? I know people will cry out at this analogy - vaccination prevents disease and circumcision is just a barbaric tradition, right? Well, maybe we should examine our views and priorities and recognize that they are not absolute. Some people decry the use of vaccinations, even professionals. And to some, doing god's bidding is more important than life, let alone health. Are they necessarily poorer for it? I am not so sure.
_/|\_

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BlackBird
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Re: A disgusting religious tradition, that has resulted in d

Postby BlackBird » Mon Apr 08, 2013 12:26 am

Hi Dan.

The practice involves (unless I and the article are mistaken) putting one's mouth and saliva (filled with bacteria) onto an open wound on the babies penis. This is a medically dangerous practice, and it really doesn't matter how rare it is, 2 babies have died from it, and others have suffered brain damage.

That is enough in my opinion that the practice should be banned lest a third baby is taken from this world over an archaic religious ritual.
I don't think one can place a value on human life, it is of infinite value in my opinion at least, and so the practice should be banned.

with metta
Jack
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." -

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David N. Snyder
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Re: A disgusting religious tradition, that has resulted in d

Postby David N. Snyder » Mon Apr 08, 2013 12:34 am

Hi Dan,

I don't think anyone (as far as I can tell) said circumcision is barbaric, just that the way these cases are handled in unsanitary conditions. The "jury is still out" about the positive and / or negative impacts (if any) of circumcision. I think circumcision should still be allowed if the parents want to do this, but with sanitary conditions under the procedure of a medical professional.
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Modus.Ponens
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Re: A disgusting religious tradition, that has resulted in d

Postby Modus.Ponens » Mon Apr 08, 2013 12:35 am

He turns his mind away from those phenomena, and having done so, inclines his mind to the property of deathlessness: 'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.'
(Jhana Sutta - Thanissaro Bhikkhu translation)

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Dan74
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Re: A disgusting religious tradition, that has resulted in d

Postby Dan74 » Mon Apr 08, 2013 1:35 am

You all make valid points. I still hope one does not see this as a black-and-white issue and a little from "the other side". I did not have my children circumcised, contrary to my Jewish parents' wishes (their mother is not Jewish anyway and I am an apostate - what rabbi would consent to do the procedure!?), but I do respect people's beliefs and their devotion to the Word. If this latest tragedy gets them to adopt a safer practice, I am all for it. On the other hand to compare a ritual that carries a small risk to denying a life-saving treatment (or to female genital mutilation) is not what I expect from a colleague trained in logical inference Image

As parents we do make many important choices for the children. Some are just deemed more socially acceptable than others.
_/|\_

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Modus.Ponens
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Re: A disgusting religious tradition, that has resulted in d

Postby Modus.Ponens » Mon Apr 08, 2013 9:45 am

He turns his mind away from those phenomena, and having done so, inclines his mind to the property of deathlessness: 'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.'
(Jhana Sutta - Thanissaro Bhikkhu translation)

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Dan74
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Re: A disgusting religious tradition, that has resulted in d

Postby Dan74 » Mon Apr 08, 2013 10:37 am

I can empathise with your friend's story more than I can share here... 8-)

As for your second paragraph, unfortunately the converse is not true (ie if you are a great mathematician (comedian), there is a significant chance that you are Jewish, but if you are Jewish, there is only a very small chance that you are a great mathematician (comedian)!)

But my favourite Jewish comedian mathematician is Tom Lehrer, and if you don't know him, check him out (though he is not being fair to poor old Lobachevsky as it turns out)!

_/|\_

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Re: A disgusting religious tradition, that has resulted in d

Postby Cittasanto » Mon Apr 08, 2013 5:24 pm



He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

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robertk
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Re: A disgusting religious tradition, that has resulted in d

Postby robertk » Mon Apr 08, 2013 7:25 pm

http://www.cnn.com/2012/08/27/health/aa ... mmendation
Revising its policy on circumcision for the first time in 13 years, the American Academy of Pediatrics now says that the preventative health benefits of infant circumcision clearly outweigh the risks.


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