The causes for wisdom

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
dhamma follower
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby dhamma follower » Sun Apr 07, 2013 12:50 pm

Dear PB,

There is such a thing as wrong sati


What is the characteristic of wrong sati? Can you show where there is the description of wrong sati?

"And who is the individual who goes against the flow? There is the case where an individual doesn't indulge in sensual passions and doesn't do evil deeds. Even though it may be with pain, even though it may be with sorrow, even though he may be crying, his face in tears, he lives the holy life that is perfect & pure. This is called the individual who goes against the flow.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html


We can read further in the same sutta:

Thus the enlightened one, with mindfulness here established, not indulging in sensuality & evil, though it may be with pain, would abandon sensuality. They call him one who goes against the flow.


The sutta goes on talking about the next two kinds of people: the anagami, and the arahant. IMHO, what is meant here, it' s that although the sotapana or sakadagami still have clinging to sensual pleasures, and anger (pain), their level of mindfulness is such that they never transgress the five precepts. It is not at all a description of the characteristic of right effort, neither an exortation

It is similar in your other sutta quoted. They say nothing about the characteristic of the effort exerted, but rather, it talks about its degree in each case, which is in accordance to the degree of parami -wholesome qualities which have been accumulated by a Buddha-to-be. We read about his state of mind :

Gladly would I let the flesh & blood in my body dry up


Effort has desire as a condition.

There being an agreement through pondering those dhammas, desire arises. With the arising of desire, he becomes willing. Willing, he contemplates (lit: "weighs," "compares"). Contemplating, he makes an exertion. Exerting himself, he both realizes the ultimate meaning of the truth with his body and sees by penetrating it with discernment.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html


The word desire here is not lobha, greed, unwholesome, but it is chanda. Chanda can be either wholesome or unwholesome. But as it is conditioned by real understanding of the teaching in this context, it must be wholesome.

The problem is that all this talk about realities from you comes mostly from abhidhamma, which the Buddha clearly did not teach.


Without the details and precision which are found in the Abhidhamma, one is very easily lead astray. You see: we have two different readings of the same suttas. I guess if you ask two more persons, they might come up with two more different readings...I find it deplorable that the Abhidhamma is regarded with so much disdain by many who consider them-selves Theravadins. The idea that it is not the Buddha's teaching has become so widespread and taken to be granted. I also used to reject it (just following other people) eventhough I had never read it and got a clue what it is really about. It actually refers to all what appears now, to be verified. At least, I would refrain from criticizing it until I can, by my own direct experience and certainty, know that it doesn't say the truth.

Brgrds,
D.F.

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polarbear101
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby polarbear101 » Sun Apr 07, 2013 3:40 pm

Edit: I've stated my opinion and others have stated theirs. Anyway, no point really in debating, we each have our own understanding. Anyone who has faith in the Buddha, the Dhamma, and the Sangha and who follows the 5 precepts is doing pretty good so I wish you all the best of luck in your practice and hope you realize nibbana in this very life.

:anjali:
Last edited by polarbear101 on Sun Apr 07, 2013 5:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."

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robertk
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby robertk » Sun Apr 07, 2013 4:52 pm

there is no miccha sati in the ultimate sense and in the suttas about the wrong path it is used to represent what people mistake for sati.

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robertk
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby robertk » Thu Apr 25, 2013 5:54 am

Sn 3.12
PTS: Sn 724-765
Dvayatanupassana Sutta

Now on that occasion — the Uposatha day of the fifteenth, the full-moon night — the Blessed One was sitting in the open air surrounded by the community of monks. Surveying the silent community of monks, he addressed them: "Monks, if there are any who ask, 'Your listening to teachings that are skillful, noble, leading onward, going to self-awakening is a prerequisite for what?' they should be told, 'For the sake of knowing qualities of dualities as they actually are.' 'What duality are you speaking about?' 'This is stress. This is the origination of stress': this is one contemplation. 'This is the cessation of stress. This is the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress': this is a second contemplation. For a monk rightly contemplating this duality in this way — heedful, ardent, & resolute — one of two fruits can be expected: either gnosis right here & now, or — if there be any remnant of clinging-sustenance — non-return."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

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tiltbillings
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Apr 25, 2013 6:31 am

robertk wrote:Sn 3.12
PTS: Sn 724-765
Dvayatanupassana Sutta

Now on that occasion — the Uposatha day of the fifteenth, the full-moon night — the Blessed One was sitting in the open air surrounded by the community of monks. Surveying the silent community of monks, he addressed them: "Monks, if there are any who ask, 'Your listening to teachings that are skillful, noble, leading onward, going to self-awakening is a prerequisite for what?' they should be told, 'For the sake of knowing qualities of dualities as they actually are.' 'What duality are you speaking about?' 'This is stress. This is the origination of stress': this is one contemplation. 'This is the cessation of stress. This is the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress': this is a second contemplation. For a monk rightly contemplating this duality in this way — heedful, ardent, & resolute — one of two fruits can be expected: either gnosis right here & now, or — if there be any remnant of clinging-sustenance — non-return."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
And your point is in quoting this discourse?
.


++++++++++++++++
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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robertk
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby robertk » Thu Apr 25, 2013 7:00 am

The title of this thread is Causes for wisdom
Suttas have already been cited showing that the prime causes for wisdom are hearing and contemplation of the Dhamma. This sutta adds to the discussion by showing that listening to the Dhamma leads to the attainment of nibbana. :D
It underlines the crucial importance of right view in the path.

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Paul Davy
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby Paul Davy » Thu Apr 25, 2013 7:21 am

:goodpost:

Metta,
Retro. :)
What is the final conviction that comes when radical attention is razor-edge sharp? That the object of the mind is mind-made (manomaya). (Ven. Ñāṇananda)

Having understood name-and-form, which is a product of prolificity,
And which is the root of all malady within and without,
He is released from bondage to the root of all maladies,
That Such-like-one is truly known as 'the one who has understood'.
(Snp 3.6)

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tiltbillings
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Apr 25, 2013 7:27 am

robertk wrote:The title of this thread is Causes for wisdom
Suttas have already been cited showing that the prime causes for wisdom are hearing and contemplation of the Dhamma. This sutta adds to the discussion by showing that listening to the Dhamma leads to the attainment of nibbana. :D
It underlines the crucial importance of right view in the path.
Yes, very choice driven behaviors, all. And, of course, listening is followed by the choice to put into practice, by doing, what the Buddha taught, as has been carefully explained and shown to be so via the suttas, and pretty much most, if not all, of the texts you yourself have quoted.
.


++++++++++++++++
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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robertk
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby robertk » Thu Apr 25, 2013 7:55 am

Samyutta Nikaya XXII.59:

And it is not possible to say with regard to consciousness, 'Let MY consciousness be thus. Let MY consciousness not be thus.'


The literal translation of the Anatta Lakkhana Sutta is "the characteristic of not-self" and that characteristic is no control.

"The mode of insusceptibility to having power exercised over them is the characteristic of no-self."

Sammohavinodani.

So listening to Dhamma can be with wisdom or without. But without listening and considering there is no possibility of deeper wisdom arising.

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tiltbillings
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Apr 25, 2013 11:52 am

robertk wrote:Samyutta Nikaya XXII.59:

And it is not possible to say with regard to consciousness, 'Let MY consciousness be thus. Let MY consciousness not be thus.'


The literal translation of the Anatta Lakkhana Sutta is "the characteristic of not-self" and that characteristic is no control.
And you had no control over writing your msg? There was no choice? This issue has been dealt with, above, at length. The sutta is telling us we do not have an absolute control, in that we can not will ourselves not to die or such, but it is certainly not telling us that we have no choice in how we act, and it is certainly not telling us that that choice -- kamma -- is not important to our progression on the Path.

"The mode of insusceptibility to having power exercised over them is the characteristic of no-self."

Sammohavinodani.

So listening to Dhamma can be with wisdom or without. But without listening and considering there is no possibility of deeper wisdom arising.
And listening to the Dhamma is a choice and opting to act upon what is heard is a choice that will help cultivate the causes and conditions for the arising of wisdom. We are a bit more than leaves blowing in the wind.
.


++++++++++++++++
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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robertk
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby robertk » Thu Apr 25, 2013 12:01 pm

tiltbillings wrote:. We are a bit more than leaves blowing in the wind.

All we are is Dust in the Wind
:smile: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_wp4O7v5320

Or puppets pulled and pushed by greed and delusion
Therefore, just as a marionette is void, soulless and without curisosity, and while it works and stands merely through the combination of strings and wood yet it seems as if it had curiosity and interestedness, so too this materiality (rupa)- mentality (nama) is void, soulless and without curiosity, and while it walks and stands merely through the combination of the two together, yet it seems as if it had curiosity and interestedness."

Visuddhimagga
xviii31

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tiltbillings
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Apr 25, 2013 12:10 pm

robertk wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:. We are a bit more than leaves blowing in the wind.

All we are is Dust in the Wind
:smile: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_wp4O7v5320

Or puppets pulled and pushed by greed and delusion
Therefore, just as a marionette is void, soulless and without curisosity, and while it works and stands merely through the combination of strings and wood yet it seems as if it had curiosity and interestedness, so too this materiality (rupa)- mentality (nama) is void, soulless and without curiosity, and while it walks and stands merely through the combination of the two together, yet it seems as if it had curiosity and interestedness."

Visuddhimagga
xviii31
So, there was absolutely no choice of any sort in the writing of any of the above that is under your name?
.


++++++++++++++++
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Mr Man
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby Mr Man » Thu Apr 25, 2013 12:14 pm

robertk wrote:Suttas have already been cited showing that the prime causes for wisdom are hearing and contemplation of the Dhamma.


Hi robertk by "contemplation of the Dhamma" do you mean using the brain to ponder over what has been heard/read from the sutta etc.

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kirk5a
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby kirk5a » Thu Apr 25, 2013 1:05 pm

tiltbillings wrote:And listening to the Dhamma is a choice and opting to act upon what is heard is a choice that will help cultivate the causes and conditions for the arising of wisdom. We are a bit more than leaves blowing in the wind.

Right. It's this view of total, comprehensive passivity, like dead leaves, dust in the wind, blown here and there by "conditions" which is so very very incompatible with the path the Buddha described. When the Buddha encountered that notion, he refuted it. That has been ignored by the advocates of this view here.
“So, brahmin, when there is the element of endeavoring, endeavoring beings are clearly discerned; of such beings, this is the self-doer, this, the other-doer. I have not, brahmin, seen or heard such a doctrine, such a view as yours. How, indeed, could one — moving forward by himself, moving back by himself — say ‘There is no self-doer, there is no other-doer’?”

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .niza.html

Does dust in the wind make kamma? No it does not.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

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robertk
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby robertk » Thu Apr 25, 2013 6:15 pm

Mr Man wrote:
robertk wrote:Suttas have already been cited showing that the prime causes for wisdom are hearing and contemplation of the Dhamma.


Hi robertk by "contemplation of the Dhamma" do you mean using the brain to ponder over what has been heard/read from the sutta etc.


contemplation can be at the level of pondering the teachings, but it can go deeper.
terms like bhavana and jhaya are related.

Sometimes the word bhavana is used to refer to either samatha or the development of vipassana (which is actually satipatthana).

When the texts talk about meditation, jhaya, it is useful to know that there are two types.

The Dhammapada 371 :"
Meditate, o bhikkhu and be not heedless
."

The atthakatha(Commentary) says "o bhikkhus meditate by the two kinds of meditative absorptions" And the tika notes that this is twofold in "the sense of meditative absorption that arises depending on an object and meditative absorption that arises dependent on characteristics"
The tika later explains this by saying that the first is (p506 note 6 of carter and palihawadana) "the eight attainments (jhanas) to be obtained by training the mind in concentrating on one of the thirty eight objects such as kasina [or metta, or Buddha or Dhamma or breath etc] and the second means 'insight wisdom, path and fruit'..to be obtained by reflecting on the three characteristics'"

Now when it says 'reflecting' this includes direct insight into the actual characteristics and conditions of the present moment(patipatti) right up to the vipassana nanas and magga and phala(pativedha). The Dhammapada pradipaya (see p457 of carter) says "to consider the coming into being of rupa on account of ignorance, craving, kammaand nutrition, and also to see the mere characteristics of its instantaneous coming into being, without looking for causative aspect; thus one should consider the rise of rupa in five ways. Likewise to consider the rise of
the other 4 khandas in the same way...Thus the rise of the pancakkhanda (five aggregates )is seen in 25 ways. To see that the rise of the khandas is stopped by abolishing the causes:ignorance, craving, kamma and nutrition..in this way the cessation of the agregates should be seen

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tiltbillings
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Apr 26, 2013 3:29 am

robertk wrote:
Mr Man wrote:
robertk wrote:Suttas have already been cited showing that the prime causes for wisdom are hearing and contemplation of the Dhamma.


Hi robertk by "contemplation of the Dhamma" do you mean using the brain to ponder over what has been heard/read from the sutta etc.


contemplation can be at the level of pondering the teachings,
Pondering, which is an action of choice. So, one does choose to act in such a way in relation to the teachings. While "pondering" has it place, the Buddha certainly advocated far more than a mere "pondering."

but it can go deeper.
terms like bhavana and jhaya are related.
"bhavana and jhaya ." Both of which indicate active choice in what one does.

The Dhammapada 371 :"
Meditate, o bhikkhu and be not heedless
."
Which indicates a choice of behavior.

The atthakatha(Commentary) says "o bhikkhus meditate by the two kinds of meditative absorptions" And the tika notes that this is twofold in "the sense of meditative absorption that arises depending on an object and meditative absorption that arises dependent on characteristics"
The tika later explains this by saying that the first is (p506 note 6 of carter and palihawadana) "the eight attainments (jhanas) to be obtained by training the mind in concentrating on one of the thirty eight objects such as kasina [or metta, or Buddha or Dhamma or breath etc] and the second means 'insight wisdom, path and fruit'..to be obtained by reflecting on the three characteristics'"

Now when it says 'reflecting' this includes direct insight into the actual characteristics and conditions of the present moment(patipatti) right up to the vipassana nanas and magga and phala(pativedha). The Dhammapada pradipaya (see p457 of carter) says "to consider the coming into being of rupa on account of ignorance, craving, kammaand nutrition, and also to see the mere characteristics of its instantaneous coming into being, without looking for causative aspect; thus one should consider the rise of rupa in five ways. Likewise to consider the rise of
the other 4 khandas in the same way...Thus the rise of the pancakkhanda (five aggregates )is seen in 25 ways. To see that the rise of the khandas is stopped by abolishing the causes:ignorance, craving, kamma and nutrition..in this way the cessation of the agregates should be seen
There is no thing in what the commentary says here that would support a Sujin-we-are-leaves-blowing-in-the-wind style of "practice." Quite the contrary. What is being talked about is are choices of action that cultivate the conditions of the arising of insight.

What is interesting is seeing an advocate of the Sujin-we-are-leaves-blowing-in-the-wind style of "practice," showing that he has put in a tremendous amount of work in studying Buddhist texts. I wonder why.
.


++++++++++++++++
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby mogg » Fri Apr 26, 2013 3:43 am

robertk wrote:
Discuss baby issue with wife on phone.

Here's the problem right here. Either you heard about the Buddha's teachings late in the game, or you've got the wrong idea of how we should be practicing!

With metta

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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby cooran » Fri Apr 26, 2013 4:44 am

Thanks RobertK and pt1 for your equanimous and interesting contributions to this thread - even in the case where there has been disrespectful allusions to Khun Sujin.

I remember when Ven Dhammanando visited, and other well-known and admired bhikkhus. Are there links to any of their discussions? (sorry to go off topic :tongue: )

With metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---

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tiltbillings
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Apr 26, 2013 5:06 am

cooran wrote:Thanks RobertK and pt1 for your equanimous and interesting contributions to this thread - even in the case where there has been disrespectful allusions to Khun Sujin.

I remember when Ven Dhammanando visited, and other well-known and admired bhikkhus. Are there links to any of their discussions? (sorry to go off topic :tongue: )

With metta
Chris
If you are referring to my Sujin-we-are-leaves-blowing-in-the-wind style of "practice", it is based upon robertk's own words and responses, and since robertk is advocating Sujin's position as THE way we must truly understand the Dhamma, it becomes a fair characterization of the Sujin position of "practice" as presented by robertk. There is a possibility that robertk was simply (again) being overly snide in his response here: viewtopic.php?f=16&t=15952&start=680#p242662 But then robertk's snideness does not do anything to further the dialogue, and it does, in fact, characterize Sujin's teachings as that we are naught more than leaves blowing in the wind. If you feel that this characterization is inappropriate, then the report function is there to be used. But, then, maybe it would help if robertk would actually engage the dialogue with appropriate answers rather than being snide.

Also, we are presented with a position that is so out of the mainstream of Dhamma understanding, and it is a position that by the words of its main teacher is highly critical and dismissive of other forms of practice. And it would help if robertk were to fully, and sincerely engage what is being said here.
.


++++++++++++++++
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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robertk
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby robertk » Fri Apr 26, 2013 8:42 am

tiltbillings wrote:. There is a possibility that robertk was simply (again) being overly snide in his response here: viewtopic.php?f=16&t=15952&start=680#p242662 But then robertk's snideness does not do anything to further the dialogue, , maybe it would help if robertk would actually engage the dialogue with appropriate answers rather than being snide.

.


Danda Sutta

The Stick

Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu

Just as a stick thrown up in the air lands sometimes on its base, sometimes on its side, sometimes on its tip; in the same way, beings hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving
, transmigrating and wandering on, sometimes go from this world to another world, sometimes come from another world to this
.

Dust in the Wind, by Kansas, is a great song imho.

without seeing into the nature of realities as they really are then this long long samsara will never end.
that is why soooo much viriya(energy) is needed, as i stressed in this thread.
but viriya is only helful if it is associated with right view. so right effort is not a matter of taking some special posture, it depends on understanding what is here and now. then the truth that has been learned about the anattaness of each dhamma will show itself more and more clearly.


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