YOU CANNOT POST. OUR WEB HOSTING COMPANY DECIDED TO MOVE THE SERVER TO ANOTHER LOCATION. IN THE MEANTIME, YOU CAN VIEW THIS VERSION WHICH DOES NOT ALLOW POSTING AND WILL NOT SAVE ANYTHING YOU DO ONCE THE OTHER SERVER GOES ONLINE.

Mahayanists and the historical record - Page 3 - Dhamma Wheel

Mahayanists and the historical record

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths. What can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
Nyana
Posts: 2233
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 11:56 am

Re: Mahayanists and the historical record

Postby Nyana » Sun Apr 07, 2013 6:07 pm


Nyana
Posts: 2233
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 11:56 am

Re: Mahayanists and the historical record

Postby Nyana » Sun Apr 07, 2013 6:46 pm


User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 14947
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: Mahayanists and the historical record

Postby mikenz66 » Sun Apr 07, 2013 7:15 pm


User avatar
manas
Posts: 2251
Joined: Thu Jul 22, 2010 3:04 am
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Mahayanists and the historical record

Postby manas » Sun Apr 07, 2013 10:01 pm

Then the Blessed One, picking up a tiny bit of dust with the tip of his fingernail, said to the monk, "There isn't even this much form...feeling...
perception...fabrications...consciousness that is constant, lasting, eternal, not subject to change, that will stay just as it is as long as eternity."

User avatar
BlackBird
Posts: 1925
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2009 12:07 pm
Location: New Zealand

Re: Mahayanists and the historical record

Postby BlackBird » Sun Apr 07, 2013 11:23 pm

Mike

I have faith in the Sangha too, I don't think it's fair to assume I don't. Neither do I really think it's fair to make the judgement on what this discussion is and isn't about, when our meta discussion is quite separate from the OP.

The original discussion is not about Theravada vs Mahayana, and was never intended to be, it was me asking how Mahayana deal with the intellectual problem of justifying the ascription of the Sutras to the Buddha, when the evidence shows that they are probably not the word of the historical Buddha and furthermore and perhaps more important since it is more general: How the Mahayana generate their saddha when their texts and thus their doctrine was probably not spoken by the historical Buddha.

Finally I don't really know if it's a fair judgement to call into question the strength of my faith based on a single post you've read on a forum. In the depths of my ignorance and foolishness - my fall from grace - I never once gave up the idea that the Buddha as supremely enlightened, that the Dhamma was the path to enlightenment and that the Ariyan sangha was a living embodiment of both, and that the non-ariyan Sangha was a refuge unto itself for it's protectorship of Dhamma and the yogic way of life.

I didn't really ask you for you to reiterate how you feel about Nanavira and to express whether you feel he is what he says he is, to do so was in my opinion fairly gratuitous, when I brought it up simply to give you a parallel example of my thought process. Just as the original discussion was not Theravada VERSUS Mahayana, but simply one man's curiosity with how his Buddhist cousins deal with a conundrum, so too our meta discussion is not Nanavira Thera vs. Theravada. The willingness (in your previous post) to reduce everything to a polemic is quite at odds with my specific statement in my OP that I had no intention of this thread being such a thing.

Please do not mistake the severity of my words for me being upset, you haven't offended me - For offending me is a rather difficult thing to do these days. Nor is there any ill will, I still very much consider you with good will. I just suggest you should be more cautious in your judgements, I don't presuppose to judge the foundations of your practice or it's veracity. You could be spot on the mark and a sotapatti for all I know. But I don't know.

with metta
Jack
Last edited by BlackBird on Sun Apr 07, 2013 11:51 pm, edited 5 times in total.
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." -

SarathW
Posts: 8014
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: Mahayanists and the historical record

Postby SarathW » Sun Apr 07, 2013 11:28 pm

Hi Black Bird
For me the most important thing is what I am experience here and now not what I heard or read in a book. :)
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 14947
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: Mahayanists and the historical record

Postby mikenz66 » Sun Apr 07, 2013 11:41 pm


User avatar
BlackBird
Posts: 1925
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2009 12:07 pm
Location: New Zealand

Re: Mahayanists and the historical record

Postby BlackBird » Sun Apr 07, 2013 11:55 pm

Hi Mike.

I have retracted my previous positions (of a year or two ago) where I specifically and polemically declared that Nanavira Thera was probably right, and by virtue of such, most other Theravadin teachings were probably wrong. My position now (and I do not recall stating otherwise recently) is one of a working hypothesis. I follow his teachings as a précis. I do not rule anything out, nor do I now make assumptions of other methods or teachings and I regret my previous assuredness and apologise to any whom I may have caused offence.

I do still however think feel that people (especially of the lay variety) tend to over ascribe attainments to their teachers, or to famous monks and teachers when a degree of skepticism might be healthier.

metta
Jack
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." -

User avatar
David N. Snyder
Site Admin
Posts: 10648
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 4:15 am
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada
Contact:

Re: Mahayanists and the historical record

Postby David N. Snyder » Mon Apr 08, 2013 12:50 am

Image




alan...
Posts: 824
Joined: Thu Dec 06, 2012 9:37 pm

Re: Mahayanists and the historical record

Postby alan... » Mon Apr 08, 2013 1:31 am


SarathW
Posts: 8014
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: Mahayanists and the historical record

Postby SarathW » Mon Apr 08, 2013 1:58 am

Do you know that the world oldest surviving printed book is Diamond Sutra (Mahayana Sutra).
I have read the translation of this book many times with tears in my eyes (Sorry folks, sometimes I am very emotional) :)


http://www.diamond-sutra.com/diamond_su ... ation.html
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

User avatar
Nyorai
Posts: 58
Joined: Sun Mar 10, 2013 2:44 am

Re: Mahayanists and the historical record

Postby Nyorai » Mon Apr 08, 2013 2:05 am

Basically, all theravada and Mahayana scripture were recorded by Ananda acknowledged by at least 500 Arahat then from the first sentence "Thus I Have Heard". If without record of scripture for people of the modern world, no one would enlighten unless extremely good karmic of the past lives such as Zen Patriarch Hui Neng :sage:
ImageTo become vegetarian is to step into the stream which leads to nirvana.
If you light a lamp for somebody, it will also brighten your path. He who experiences the unity of life sees his own Self in all beings, and all beings in his own Self.Image

User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 14947
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: Mahayanists and the historical record

Postby mikenz66 » Mon Apr 08, 2013 2:22 am


User avatar
BlackBird
Posts: 1925
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2009 12:07 pm
Location: New Zealand

Re: Mahayanists and the historical record

Postby BlackBird » Mon Apr 08, 2013 2:23 am

Hi Alan,

Be careful not to condescend to determine that you know my practice and what I have (or in your opinion have not) accomplished. You claim to have achieved a lot in your meditation and that is commendable, but you mistake my critical thought with doubt about the veracity of the Dhamma, and that is quite unwarrented by what I have said. I too have had experiences that have inspired great saddha in the Dhamma.

Your example of the cellphone is quite in line with my mode of thought, for as I previously stated (perhaps even in the post you quoted) in the hypothetical situation that I found out the Buddha was not real, I would continue meditation and sila. The difference is that I would not apply myself with the label of Buddhist (which I do at present tenuously at best) and I would have to re examine many of my conclusions about the path and the Dhamma.

I do not personally believe that meditative achievements in the realms of jhana and such like should be a basis for not continually critically examining ones views and thought processes, for until we reach stream entry, we are all still possessed of mistaken views. But I do not presume to know how far your achievements extend, so please take the above in full knowledge that I am setting up something of a straw man, an assumption of sorts.

I am as time abides, more open to teachings of the Mahayana, although it can only extend so far, for as I have discussed at length, my saddha in so far as the possibility of nibbana, is in large part attributed to the Buddha's historical thusness.

Hope you are well
metta
Jack
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." -

alan...
Posts: 824
Joined: Thu Dec 06, 2012 9:37 pm

Re: Mahayanists and the historical record

Postby alan... » Mon Apr 08, 2013 2:37 am

Last edited by alan... on Mon Apr 08, 2013 2:53 am, edited 7 times in total.

User avatar
BlackBird
Posts: 1925
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2009 12:07 pm
Location: New Zealand

Re: Mahayanists and the historical record

Postby BlackBird » Mon Apr 08, 2013 2:38 am

Last edited by BlackBird on Mon Apr 08, 2013 3:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." -

User avatar
ground
Posts: 2591
Joined: Wed Nov 25, 2009 6:01 am

Re: Mahayanists and the historical record

Postby ground » Mon Apr 08, 2013 2:51 am


User avatar
zavk
Posts: 1161
Joined: Tue Jan 20, 2009 12:04 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Mahayanists and the historical record

Postby zavk » Mon Apr 08, 2013 2:54 am

With metta,
zavk

User avatar
Ben
Posts: 18442
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:49 am
Location: kanamaluka

Re: Mahayanists and the historical record

Postby Ben » Mon Apr 08, 2013 8:45 am

Thank you, Ed!
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

(Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • •

e: [email protected]..

User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23012
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Mahayanists and the historical record

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Apr 08, 2013 8:47 am



Return to “Connections to Other Paths”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 14 guests

Google Saffron, Theravada Search Engine