A disgusting religious tradition, that has resulted in death

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Dan74
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Re: A disgusting religious tradition, that has resulted in d

Post by Dan74 »

You all make valid points. I still hope one does not see this as a black-and-white issue and a little from "the other side". I did not have my children circumcised, contrary to my Jewish parents' wishes (their mother is not Jewish anyway and I am an apostate - what rabbi would consent to do the procedure!?), but I do respect people's beliefs and their devotion to the Word. If this latest tragedy gets them to adopt a safer practice, I am all for it. On the other hand to compare a ritual that carries a small risk to denying a life-saving treatment (or to female genital mutilation) is not what I expect from a colleague trained in logical inference Image

As parents we do make many important choices for the children. Some are just deemed more socially acceptable than others.
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Modus.Ponens
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Re: A disgusting religious tradition, that has resulted in d

Post by Modus.Ponens »

Dan74 wrote:You all make valid points. I still hope one does not see this as a black-and-white issue and a little from "the other side". I did not have my children circumcised, contrary to my Jewish parents' wishes (their mother is not Jewish anyway and I am an apostate - what rabbi would consent to do the procedure!?), but I do respect people's beliefs and their devotion to the Word. If this latest tragedy gets them to adopt a safer practice, I am all for it. On the other hand to compare a ritual that carries a small risk to denying a life-saving treatment (or to female genital mutilation) is not what I expect from a colleague trained in logical inference Image

As parents we do make many important choices for the children. Some are just deemed more socially acceptable than others.
:D

Ok, it hasn't the same degree of severity, but it's the same principle. I lived with a friend (in a student apartment) who went through circumcision in his adult life and it was hellish for him. I still laugh when I remember what he had to do to take care of the "instrument".

I didn't know you were jewish. I have a great admiration for jewish culture in general. The best american comedians are jewish (by birth, I mean): Larry David, Jerry Seinfeld, Louis CK, Woody Allen and John Stewart. In mathematics the list is even more impressive: Paul Erdös, Alexander Grothendieck, Edward Witten, Grigori Perelman, etc. The first two are among my 3 favorite mathematicians of the 20th century.

EDIT: I'm not a colleague (yet).
'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.' - Jhana Sutta
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Dan74
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Re: A disgusting religious tradition, that has resulted in d

Post by Dan74 »

I can empathise with your friend's story more than I can share here... 8-)

As for your second paragraph, unfortunately the converse is not true (ie if you are a great mathematician (comedian), there is a significant chance that you are Jewish, but if you are Jewish, there is only a very small chance that you are a great mathematician (comedian)!)

But my favourite Jewish comedian mathematician is Tom Lehrer, and if you don't know him, check him out (though he is not being fair to poor old Lobachevsky as it turns out)!

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Cittasanto
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Re: A disgusting religious tradition, that has resulted in d

Post by Cittasanto »

BlackBird wrote:http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... -City.html

This kind of thing should be banned in the west. Poor babies, metta to them.
Circumcision of a minor should be banned unless for a medical reason. if an adult wants it done for religious purposes fine, but a minor should not be forced.
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robertk
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Re: A disgusting religious tradition, that has resulted in d

Post by robertk »

http://www.cnn.com/2012/08/27/health/aa ... mmendation
Revising its policy on circumcision for the first time in 13 years, the American Academy of Pediatrics now says that the preventative health benefits of infant circumcision clearly outweigh the risks.
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Modus.Ponens
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Re: A disgusting religious tradition, that has resulted in d

Post by Modus.Ponens »

Dan74 wrote:I can empathise with your friend's story more than I can share here... 8-)

As for your second paragraph, unfortunately the converse is not true (ie if you are a great mathematician (comedian), there is a significant chance that you are Jewish, but if you are Jewish, there is only a very small chance that you are a great mathematician (comedian)!)

But my favourite Jewish comedian mathematician is Tom Lehrer, and if you don't know him, check him out (though he is not being fair to poor old Lobachevsky as it turns out)!

Good one! I don't know who Lobachevsky, but it's a pretty strong set of acusations!

He graduated early!

Is that a self-deprecating joke? It seems very counterintuitive if it's literaly true!
'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.' - Jhana Sutta
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Dan74
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Re: A disgusting religious tradition, that has resulted in d

Post by Dan74 »

You're kidding! Lobachevsky was the father of hyperbolic geometry.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikolai_Lobachevsky
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BlackBird
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Re: A disgusting religious tradition, that has resulted in d

Post by BlackBird »

Getting a little off topic I fear, but as a race I think Jews have a disproportionately high number of geniuses. Someone once thought I was Jewish (a racist guy who took my reading exert of Mila 18 to be proof), I felt like thanking him for the compliment.

Back on topic, Cittasanto: I don't personally think it's a big enough deal to make it illegal to circumcise babies, and that circumcision should be consensual. I personally wouldn't have been pissed off if my parents had had me circumcised as a babe, but to each their own. It's not a black and white argument. but most definitely a grey number.
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manas
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Re: A disgusting religious tradition, that has resulted in d

Post by manas »

robertk wrote:http://www.cnn.com/2012/08/27/health/aa ... mmendation
Revising its policy on circumcision for the first time in 13 years, the American Academy of Pediatrics now says that the preventative health benefits of infant circumcision clearly outweigh the risks.
Let's suppose a baby gets born with an unusually long foreskin, which could result in a few hygiene issues during childhood; in that instance, I think there might be a justification in having it done in a clean, sterile, respectful & proper medical way. Otherwise: let the kid decide for himself, when he is a teenager perhaps, and can give informed consent. Babies cannot give informed consent!

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Reductor
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Re: A disgusting religious tradition, that has resulted in d

Post by Reductor »

About the hygiene thing: why is it so hard to wash your kid's pecker? Seriously, I always washed my son's in the past, and now that he's older, I've taught him to wash it when taking a shower. Not hard.

I mean, a kid's ass is a foul little thing, but we don't cut off the cheek.
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Cittasanto
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Re: A disgusting religious tradition, that has resulted in d

Post by Cittasanto »

BlackBird wrote:Getting a little off topic I fear, but as a race I think Jews have a disproportionately high number of geniuses. Someone once thought I was Jewish (a racist guy who took my reading exert of Mila 18 to be proof), I felt like thanking him for the compliment.

Back on topic, Cittasanto: I don't personally think it's a big enough deal to make it illegal to circumcise babies, and that circumcision should be consensual. I personally wouldn't have been pissed off if my parents had had me circumcised as a babe, but to each their own. It's not a black and white argument. but most definitely a grey number.
Hacking a part of the body off with no need is grey? sorry but if they can not give informed concent, and this sort of stuff happends due to a lack of sanitary conditions, not to mention the needless mortality rate of a forced elective procedure.
http://www.icgi.org/2010/04/infant-circ ... ear-in-us/
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He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
binocular
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Re: A disgusting religious tradition, that has resulted in d

Post by binocular »

BlackBird wrote:A disgusting religious tradition, that has resulted in death
It's not clear what this has to do with religion, other than hastily being called that way ...

It's how one can get a lot of doubts, confusion and hesitation about religion, including Buddhism (which is probably why some people call Buddhism a "philosophy," as opposed to a "religion").
Hic Rhodus, hic salta!
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