Baroness Margaret Hilda Thatcher

Casual discussion amongst spiritual friends.

Re: Baroness Margaret Hilda Thatcher

Postby Dan74 » Tue Apr 09, 2013 6:38 am

manas wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
manas wrote:While it's true that many of the actions & policies she instigated during her time in power were clearly wrong and ought to be censured, there's no point in us judging her personally
Ah, but you just did, and rather neatly.


Tilt, don't you make any distinction between her (as a poor ignorant wandering being), and her actions? That's what I was getting at. I meant, that while I do not approve of many actions she undertook during her lifetime, that nevertheless I feel sorry for her now, having to experience the results of those actions. The 'hate the sin, but not the sinner' notion. But yeah I see your point.

:anjali:


I think the only thing we can judge are the actions. Doesn't really make sense to judge the person - what is a person apart from his/her actions? We don't know the thoughts, so...
_/|\_
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Re: Baroness Margaret Hilda Thatcher

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Apr 09, 2013 6:49 am

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Baroness Margaret Hilda Thatcher

Postby BlackBird » Tue Apr 09, 2013 7:00 am

James the Giant wrote:
BlackBird wrote:What happend to Genkaku? He used to post here there and everywhere. Haven't seen him in years. I bought his book, it was a wonderful read.

He is still very active on NewBuddhist.com, posts a lot every day. He wrote a book?
Sorry for off topic.


Yeah it was called 'Answer your love letters' it's a collection of stories with zen musings, I loved it, very heart warming. Don't know if it's still in publication though, you could ask the man himself I guess. I gave it to the library at Bodhinyanarama before I departed for Sri Lanka.
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta
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Re: Baroness Margaret Hilda Thatcher

Postby retrofuturist » Tue Apr 09, 2013 9:33 am

Greetings,

Margaret Thatcher dead: Judy Garland's Ding Dong The Witch Is Dead set for number one spot
Facebook campaign sends 1939 song rocketing into iTunes Top 30 download chart

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/ma ... ds-1819526

Live chart position: http://livehits.co.uk/top300.php

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Baroness Margaret Hilda Thatcher

Postby Ben » Tue Apr 09, 2013 11:57 am

Certainly she was a complex individual - as were the situations she faced.
"One cannot step twice into the same river, nor can one grasp any mortal substance in a stable condition, but it scatters and again gathers; it forms and dissolves, and approaches and departs."

- Hereclitus


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Re: Baroness Margaret Hilda Thatcher

Postby BlackBird » Tue Apr 09, 2013 1:06 pm

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,

Margaret Thatcher dead: Judy Garland's Ding Dong The Witch Is Dead set for number one spot
Facebook campaign sends 1939 song rocketing into iTunes Top 30 download chart

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/ma ... ds-1819526

Live chart position: http://livehits.co.uk/top300.php

Metta,
Retro. :)


Goodness gracious me

She was still a human being, tis all a bit ruff if you ask me.

The power of social media is incredible though, I wonder who's going to profit from all this new found success for the song?
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta
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Re: Baroness Margaret Hilda Thatcher

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Apr 09, 2013 1:14 pm

BlackBird wrote:
She was still a human being, tis all a bit ruff if you ask me.
She is a human being who should little to no empathy with the lives she ruined.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Baroness Margaret Hilda Thatcher

Postby Rasko » Tue Apr 09, 2013 1:28 pm

Britain is a democracy? She and her policies at that time were supported by the majority? Or not?
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Re: Baroness Margaret Hilda Thatcher

Postby Ben » Tue Apr 09, 2013 1:45 pm

Rasko wrote:Britain is a democracy? She and her policies at that time were supported by the majority? Or not?


Of course it is a democracy and a democracy under Thatcher. She and her party were elected by a majority of voting adults and returned another two times. Thatcher was Prime Minister for three consecutive terms. It would appear that she was popular. Certainly not popular with all, but a majority of voters.
kind regards,

Ben
"One cannot step twice into the same river, nor can one grasp any mortal substance in a stable condition, but it scatters and again gathers; it forms and dissolves, and approaches and departs."

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Re: Baroness Margaret Hilda Thatcher

Postby Coyote » Tue Apr 09, 2013 1:53 pm

Rasko wrote:Britain is a democracy? She and her policies at that time were supported by the majority? Or not?


Depends how democratic you think the first-past-the-post system is.
"If beings knew, as I know, the results of giving & sharing, they would not eat without having given, nor would the stain of miserliness overcome their minds. Even if it were their last bite, their last mouthful, they would not eat without having shared."
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Re: Baroness Margaret Hilda Thatcher

Postby BlackBird » Tue Apr 09, 2013 2:04 pm

Coyote wrote:
Rasko wrote:Britain is a democracy? She and her policies at that time were supported by the majority? Or not?


Depends how democratic you think the first-past-the-post system is.


Quite. For any who may not be familiar: FPP doesn't require a candidate have an absolute majority, so in the example on wikipedia, Tony Tan would be elected with just over 1/3rd of the vote, 2/3rds of the public did not vote for that person but they're elected nevertheless. Some FPP systems feature a run off vote between the top 2, in order to clarify. Still, not exactly the best functioning version of a democracy.

Another issue, to quote the article:

To a greater extent than many other electoral methods, the first-past-the-post system encourages tactical voting. Voters have an incentive to vote for one of the two candidates they predict are most likely to win, even if they would prefer another of the candidates to win, because a vote for any other candidate will likely be "wasted" and have no impact on the final result.
The position is sometimes summed up, in an extreme form, as "All votes for anyone other than the second place are votes for the winner", because by voting for other candidates, they have denied those votes to the second place candidate who could have won had they received them. Following the 2000 U.S. presidential election, some supporters of Democratic candidate Al Gore believed he lost the extremely close election to Republican George W. Bush because a portion of the electorate (2.7%) voted for Ralph Nader of the Green Party, and exit polls indicated that more of these voters would have preferred Gore (45%) to Bush (27%), with the rest not voting in Nader's absence.[4]


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First-pas ... ost_voting
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta
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Re: Baroness Margaret Hilda Thatcher

Postby Rasko » Tue Apr 09, 2013 3:34 pm

BlackBird wrote:
Coyote wrote:
Rasko wrote:Britain is a democracy? She and her policies at that time were supported by the majority? Or not?


Depends how democratic you think the first-past-the-post system is.


Quite. For any who may not be familiar: FPP doesn't require a candidate have an absolute majority, so in the example on wikipedia, Tony Tan would be elected with just over 1/3rd of the vote, 2/3rds of the public did not vote for that person but they're elected nevertheless. Some FPP systems feature a run off vote between the top 2, in order to clarify. Still, not exactly the best functioning version of a democracy.


I've always thought that to be a strange system. We have D'Hondt method here in Finland, many parties in parliament, coalition governments and currently the largest group has 22% of the seats after getting 20.4% of the popular vote.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%27Hondt_method

Anyways, some of the posts above seemed to blame only Mrs Thatcher for whatever happened, like voters have no responsibility...

United Kingdom general elections, Prime minister, Winning Party, Majority
1979 3 May 1979 Margaret Thatcher Conservative 43
1983 9 June 1983 Margaret Thatcher Conservative 144
1987 11 June 1987 Margaret Thatcher Conservative 102
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Re: Baroness Margaret Hilda Thatcher

Postby Sam Vara » Tue Apr 09, 2013 4:23 pm

Coyote wrote:
Rasko wrote:Britain is a democracy? She and her policies at that time were supported by the majority? Or not?


Depends how democratic you think the first-past-the-post system is.


Agreed. Worth noting that in each of the 3 general elections Thatcher won, she had a higher percentage of the popular vote than any of the other parties, as well as more seats accrued as a result of the vagaries of the electoral system. This in UK politics is deemed sufficient to provide a strong mandate - as indeed is the case with the Labour Party gaining sufficient seats and votes in 1945 to secure a mandate for their historic Welfare State reforms. She also maintained that relatively high share of the popular vote - it only dropped a couple of percentage points throughout her time in office. For the stats, see

http://www.politicsresources.net/area/uk/percentvote.htm

Thatcher certainly polarised opinion in the UK and abroad (and I was far from being a fan!) but she was a leader elected with a strong majority according to the UK constitution.
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Re: Baroness Margaret Hilda Thatcher

Postby Coyote » Tue Apr 09, 2013 5:47 pm

And it's a system that we democratically voted to uphold, not that I am necessarily a fan of FPTP or Lady Thatcher.
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Re: Baroness Margaret Hilda Thatcher

Postby imagemarie » Tue Apr 09, 2013 6:09 pm

"To me, consensus seems to be the process of abandoning all beliefs, principles, values and policies. So it is something in which no one believes and to which no one objects".

Margaret Thatcher

:clap:
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Re: Baroness Margaret Hilda Thatcher

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Apr 09, 2013 8:08 pm

Sam Vara wrote:
Thatcher certainly polarised opinion in the UK and abroad (and I was far from being a fan!) but she was a leader elected with a strong majority according to the UK constitution.
One thing concervatives (cetrtainly in the USA) are very good at is getting people to vote against their best interest.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Baroness Margaret Hilda Thatcher

Postby Sam Vara » Tue Apr 09, 2013 8:40 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
Sam Vara wrote:
Thatcher certainly polarised opinion in the UK and abroad (and I was far from being a fan!) but she was a leader elected with a strong majority according to the UK constitution.
One thing concervatives (cetrtainly in the USA) are very good at is getting people to vote against their best interest.


Yes, I'm aware of that viewpoint (ideology, false consciousness, Gramsci's dual consciousness, and the Frankfurt School, etc.) but it is notoriously very difficult to convincingly demonstrate what a person's or a group's interests are, when they are not actually expressed by them.

Besides, my point was not that Thatcher's administrations were in anyone's interests, but that they were as mandated and legitimate as many other post-war examples (Callaghan's, one of Wilson's, and John Major's for sure, and certainly the current coalition...)
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Re: Baroness Margaret Hilda Thatcher

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Apr 10, 2013 12:10 am

my point was not that Thatcher's administrations were in anyone's interests, but that they were as mandated and legitimate as many other post-war examples
And so was the election of George W. Bush, but the sequelae has been in no one's best interest except the wealthy. Thatcher was lucky to have had the North Sea oil revenues to buffer the impact of her horrible reign of conservative ugliness, but England is paying the price now. Alas.
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This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Baroness Margaret Hilda Thatcher

Postby Nyana » Wed Apr 10, 2013 12:29 am

tiltbillings wrote:One thing concervatives (cetrtainly in the USA) are very good at is getting people to vote against their best interest.

It seems to me that the current crop of American conservative teabaggers are far to the right of Thatcher on a whole number of issues (e.g. taxes, health care, social security, etc.).
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Re: Baroness Margaret Hilda Thatcher

Postby BlackBird » Wed Apr 10, 2013 12:34 am

tiltbillings wrote:
Sam Vara wrote:
Thatcher certainly polarised opinion in the UK and abroad (and I was far from being a fan!) but she was a leader elected with a strong majority according to the UK constitution.
One thing concervatives (cetrtainly in the USA) are very good at is getting people to vote against their best interest.


An argument that I am at pains to repeat to any self proclaimed conservative from the middle classes/working classes that I encounter. More often than not though they're quite blind to the exploitation, filled to the brim with the supplied party lines and as such quite unwilling to view my arguments with anything other than scorn.
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta
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